Vibration Machines Make for Noisy Neighbors
Are your neighbors going to like your home model as much as you?
This problem is raising its head again and again - with one company being sued in Italy for not warning its customers about issues such as the noise and vibration that these units can create. In this case the neighbor’s bathroom tiles were cracked.
I will go through the basic potential problems one at a time and they can be discussed in more depth in the blog if needed.
Vibrations
Vibrations can travel through your building much further than you imagine. This can depend on the construction of the building and how powerful the vibrations are being sent “downwards”.
A number of things can be done to help these problems: mats, good isolators etc… but you will always get some energy being sent into the floor.
Think about this…
A typical home unit produces 3G of force. This means the object being moved becomes 3 times its own weight while being slung around by the vibration.
A typical home unit weights about 60kg.
So 3 x 60kg = 180kg
The unit running by itself is like a 180kg person jumping up and down on your floor. Yes putting a mat under the person will help, some isolators will work better, but you still have 180kg of mass jumping up and down on your floor.
But wait folks, it gets better. How much do you weigh? Add that to the equation once you get on top and start working out. Lets say you weigh 70Kg.
3 x 70kg = 210kg.
Add that to the machine and you have 390kg of dynamic mass moving around in your building. Do you think the neighbors will feel that?
Creating a noise next door…
These vibrations can travel silently under you and turn a wall 50 meters away into a speaker. If fact the machine may appear very quiet standing right next to it, so being deceived at the shop is very easy.
How does this work ? A speaker is only a flat surface being vibrated; it hits the air and causes a “sound wave” to hit your eardrum and you “hear” the change in air pressure.
Think about an old record player (gramophone). It has a small needle running over little bumps and this causes a “vibration” which is then amplified into a horn so it is loud enough to hear.
If you are vibrating someones wall next door you are effectively playing your machine into their living room.
My advice: talk to the sales staff before putting one in your house - if they do not know any of this stuff - walk away.
52 Comments
- Dennis
November 19th, 2007This may be a bit off the subject, but I am interested in the vibrational training, but had a knee replacement about a year ago. Is there a danger for me to us one of the machines?
Talk to your doctor first. If you are allowed to exercise normally you will be fine.
Note: You will need a machine with side rails to take some pressure out of the squat.
- Giovanni Ciriani
November 22nd, 2007I don’t think that there are clinical or empirical studies that have looked at the interaction between a prosthesis and the bone with WBV. I don’t expect your doctor to know much about it either.
Dennis,
What I’ve heard from a knowledgeable Strength and Conditioning coach, who uses the platform with the athletes of an Italian major-league soccer team, is the following. A metal implant is likely to start micro movements in the bone, and such movement of the implant relative to the bone is likely to be bad news. It may compromise the knee replacement.I trust the doctor who gave this advice because he also teaches Sport-Medicine at a reputable University, and has written articles on WBV.
Regards,
Giovanni Ciriani I forgot the website.
Without 10yrs of testing we will not know for sure how this kind of training effects anything stuck in bone, does it wiggle loose or does the shock create more bone , who knows ?
But we do have one problem no-one has to guess about.
People are using these products at home and at gyms with little or no knowledge of the contraindications or dangers because everybody is either denying its happening or just giving advice not to ( which last time I checked never worked on any portion of the population).
Now this does not mean we actively promote the use of Vibration Training products on artifical body parts , but it should be addressed as a fact it will happen with or without our consent .
We need to discuss how to minimise the risks.
- Di
November 23rd, 2007So how can we best minimize the risks? Using Side Handlebars definitely takes a percentage of the force into the arms/upperbody areas.
Also would you suggest a foam pad on the platform?
Lloyd, do you know the differences in the way the vibrations pass thru metal implant material compared with bone and are you able to make any judgements/suggestions based on this?
Anyone comment please: Should machines that are in gyms and beauty clinics have a large warning notice on the wall explaining risks? Especially the machines that are coin or card fed?
Does it matter which type, lineal or pivotal, machine is used for particular artificial body parts? Do designers or manufacturers EVER cover this in their promotion or usage literature?
- John Weatherly
November 26th, 2007I think they should list contraindications in gyms. I know of one company that does cover contraindications in their literature at least to an extent.
- HR
January 24th, 2008Are there any ‘Hypergravity Personal’ users here that can advise me as to how noisy they are for domestic use?
Dear HR,
For domestic use, do you mean apartment/ condo? We have to exercise some caution selling our units into places like this, especially above the ground floor. We have modified the home units now to dampen some of the noise transferred from the plate to the outside (noise only), and recommend a solid floor to run the equipment on. With the clients using the home units now, we have had no complaints, even with the ones installed in apartments.- HR
January 27th, 2008Many thanks for the information Josh. It was for above ground floor use in a duplex unfortunately!
Hi HR,
Email me if you would like to discuss this further, I have some suggestions that may work for your application.- Kim
February 9th, 2008Hi Josh,
Recently a body vibration gym moved into the unit next door to me and have found the vibrations unbearable. Ironically when I am in the gym the noise is not loud at all, but in my apartment it is intense. And in addition to me it is driving my cat completely bonkers. I have talked to the gym owner and he is definitely concerned and is willing to help, but do you have any suggestions? Right now he is testing out moving the units into different areas in the gym and placing them by the large foundation pillars to see if that helps. But, it just transfers the vibrations into a different part of my apartment. I am desperate for a solution!
The flooring used under the plates is a major concern, concrete floors are a must. From what I’ve seen so far, more than 4″ of concrete is needed, the thicker the better, especially when there are neighbors to concerned with. If it is an older building with wood construction, there is not much you can do about the noise. Moving the machine to a different area may help to, some structures resonate more in different areas just due to the design of the building.
What kind of machine did your neighbors purchase?
Two layers of material is needed to stop this problem.
(1) A hard rubber ( similar to tyres ) mat.
(2) A soft foam mat of the same size.
(3) Stick the mats together with a quick drying spray glue.
(4) Make sure the soft side goes directly on the floor , hard side up.
I run 9 large machines with this system and my neigbours hear nothing , even at peak times.
- Kim
March 6th, 2008Sorry it took me a while to respond….the machines are from Vibrogym. He currently has 3, one that is much more intense than the other two. He did purchase judo mats, but they did not help the vibration whatsoever. I forwarded him the suggestion above, but have not heard back. The complex I live in is brand new, but unfortunately the space he moved was not built to be a gym originally. I have now found out the gentleman that lives above the gym is affected as well. Any other suggestions?
- physiofit
March 14th, 2008I would like to add some information with regards to knee replacement implant!
I’m a physio who lectures in WBV & use it on a variety of medical conditions. I found WBV is a very beneficial with people with knee implants for the following reasons:
1- Low impact on joints
2- With knee implants patients tend to develop weaker lower body muscles, so WBV ideal to strengthen these muscles
3-Depending on Age, type of implant (cemented, or non-cemented) & position of implant, patient active life-style & off course when & how long this implant placed
4- Sadly some Health professionals prefers the theory that vibration will loosen up the implant & its screws! Well that can happen if you specifically hold that knee and shake it violently on its own. WBV as the name says it all: whole body vibration means the whole body as one unit vibrate so you are not isolating the knee with its implant but the whole body & in this action the implant should be safe with WBV. Although knee implants are possible contra-indication, they are not absolute contra-indication. However, as this field has not yet researched, the Health care professional should make his/her decision based on each individual’s case and clinical judgement.I wanted to share my practical experience with you & hope you find this information useful
Regards
Leon
Hello Leon,
Thanks for sharing!
I recently supplied a vertical vibration plate to a physiotherapy dept. of convalescent hospital. The PTs were thinking to use vibration training as intervention in the rehabilitation program for those elderlies who received hip replacement.
However, when they received the machine and went through the contra-indication list, they became reluctant in using it as “implant” is on the contra-indication list.
We believe metal plate implants and articifical joint replacement are precaution instead of contra-indication. Especially if the implant has bonded well with the bone. On the other hand, I can understand the PTs’ concern, it is easy for us to say which application can or can’t do. In practice, it is the PTs’ who hold responsibility and liability.
It is good to communicate and share with someone like you who are actually practicing this technique.
May I have your email address for communication besides sharing knowledge openly here?
Timothy from Hong Kong
- physiofit
March 21st, 2008Hi Timothy,
I’m happy to share my knowledge with you and any body on this website! My email: physio7@hotmail.co.uk
Kind Regards
Physiofit
How about this for a noisy machine……
- Di Heap
May 13th, 2008*Laughs* Yes, noisy and interesting too. It looks like a rough ride. I would hope that real ice/snow would be smoother.
- Tim
May 13th, 2008My mother has had an artificial knee for some years now. The last two years she used a PowerPlate every day. No problem. She talked to a physiotherapist who said it is considered safe in general. The PowerPlate people said: go ahead and train! No case of an artificial knee loosening has ever been reported according to them.
The comment from the Physio is correct, but they would not have been talking about Power Plate , but units with strict Lineal movement ,not low quality units that vibrate in uncontrolled directions. No Physio would actually recommend that.
Their comment….
“No case of an artificial knee loosening has ever been reported according to them.”
You trust anything they say ?
- Tim
May 14th, 2008Actually, it seems many physiotherapists and medical doctors don´t know much about the different machines. This physio said: vibration training is considered safe in general - not this or that kind of vibration or this or that machine.
Hahahaha, no, I do not trust the PowerPlate people. Interestingly, I received a phone call about an hour ago from a PP instructor/sales person. I have called them before to ask some questions, but only reached their answering machine. Now I told the woman that I have a list of questions and she then asked me if they were about work-out techniques. I said they are partly about frequencies and how they affect a person. She immediately asked me to send her an e-mail with the questions instead…
- Tim
May 14th, 2008I just received mail-info from PowerPlate. Used by NASA and MDD certified?
Yea , N.A.S.A. use a plastic machine from China to train on.
I suppose they would use the Air cushion system so unwanted vibration dont make their way into the electronics.
Houston we have a problem with our Power Plate…….
- Tim
May 14th, 2008:)Yeah, I told the sales person (by e-mail) that it´s kind of strange that NASA would choose to use a plastic machine made in China when there are high quality machines made in the US.
Houston, damn, we should have gone with Pittsburgh steel.
- Tim
May 15th, 2008Just received an e-mail from PowerPlate. The woman did not answer any of my questions. She wants to invite me to a demo. There I will get all the answers, a presentation, learn about the unique research and gain a great understanding of the different PowerPlate models.
Am I surprised? No.
Hello Tim,
Did Power Plate people actually tell you their China-made “Power Plate” devices are MDD certified? MDD stands for Medical Device Directive in European Community.
If Power Plate can meet the strict regulatons of MDD and obtained the certification, this aggressive marketing body would have put bold announcement in their website.
CE approved is different from MDD approved.
TC
My apologies to Power Plate, I just found a document from their website that they did obtain MDD this year.
However, MDD divides into different classes and Power Plate complies to the basic Class I while there are other MDD approved vibration training machines meet Class IIa.
I shall investigate the difference and come back with information.
TC
- Tim
May 15th, 2008Hi Timothy!
I got the MDD info through an e-mail with lots of information attached. It says only MDD, so no class mentioned. However, when I search PowerPlate´s Swedish website I cannot find anything about that certification.
This I guess is what would have happened….
(1) They applied for MDD certification ( anyone is allowed to )
(2) They would have had a machine tested.
But what actual machine was tested , thats the real question ?
Power Plate has a history of swapping tests , engineers report and awards from various units and using them to sell the cheaper machines to the unsuspecting public.
They used tests from steel machines to sell their plastic ones for years.
They have no shame or ethics so anything is possable.
Tim…. Ask if all units have MDD cert.
- Tim
May 15th, 2008Yes, that is the real question!
She hasn´t been willing to answer one single question so far, but I shall try!
- Tim
May 15th, 2008Lloyd, how come you started working for PowerPlate, how long did you work for PowerPlate and how soon did you find out about all the crap?
Started communicating with them in 2003 back when they had well tested units. In 2004 we received the last of the 3 “real” units.
After that it went downhill fast and I started to investigate myself , as even though I was working for Power plate they continued to lie to me .
I did try to turn them around but it was useless , they are a lost cause.
- Tim
May 16th, 2008Was this new strategy due to new leadership at PowerPlate or what happened?
Power Plate was at first a partnership between 2 guys , one a sports coach , one an engineer. One to do promotions and programs , the other to design units.
The sports coach was caught double crossing his mate by getting replicas of their product in China made without permission. And he did not tell his reps they where fakes as well. So everyone got caught and we were not happy.
The engineer still owns Vibro-Gym and they are still being made to the old Power Plate specs in the same factory in Holland , alot of the older staff and reps went with him.
The coach got into bed/business with the only type of people who would talk to him , marketers. They deserve each other , but for the consumer its been a non-stop nightmare of lies and dodgy dealings.
I personally was prepared to design machines, write material for Power Plate and help them create a company we could all feel proud .
Instead they are just an embarrasment and a shamefull time for those involved.
- Tim
May 16th, 2008The sales woman from PowerPlate called me earlier today and was upset that I was questioning her seriousness. She handed the phone to the PowerPlate expert at the office and we had a long conversation. He said among other things, that their plastic is an advantage, because (among other things) you can do a lower back massage sitting on the floor leaning against it. Material is not important for vibration, so steel is not better than plastic. He said PowerPlate used to have “tin can models” before they redesigned them in 2003. Old research done on the tin can was continued on the plastic models which shows that they give the same results. An untrained person will not benefit from more than 30Hz as the body is not accustomed to responding to vibrations. After much practice one can use higher frequencies and then this will be more efficient. PowerPlate has had much more research done than any other (vibration/acceleration) company on the market. Around 50 top Universities are doing research on PowerPlate. Medical doctors are using them here in Sweden. The centre that trains 90 % of NBA and NFL players uses PowerPlate and have mentor programs. In Sweden there is Personal Trainer program training the students in the use of PowerPlate. PowerPlate works with the Swedish National Downhill Team, weight lifting teams etc. Engines are made in Italy, electronics in Holland (or was it the other way around?) and everything is assembled in China. I would be very impressed if I saw the facilities in China. NASA use PowerPlate. PowerPlate is allowed to use the NASA seal in their marketing. MDD certified. The top PowerPlate machines are heavier than other machines, which is good.
When I showed him the Hypergravity website, he said that their machines look like PowerPlate´s machines did years ago. Pretty much same construction (plate, feet etc.)
I hope I got everything perfectly right. It is always easier with question and answer in writing.
Any comments?
- Tim
May 16th, 2008I just wrote to NASA to find out.
(1) Plastic is used to absorb vibration , not transfer it. In no other engineering application is it used to transfer energy.
They built it out of plastic because its cheap.
(2) The studies showing positive results were all done on the older steel models .
(3) It is true studies are being done right now on the new units , they gift them to universities so they can say research is being done. This will backfire on them badly , but it takes a few years for research to get published . But word is out already…
Eg.. This off Core Performance forum.
“I spoke with a professor at a major university. He said they have 2 PowerPlates in one of their labs and students doing their thesis have done 8 studies using PowerPlate (which have not been published). None of the studies (8) showed any benefits of vibration training using PowerPlate equipment.”
(4) Weight of units ?
My standard Vibra-Train is 240Kg , my lightest unit is 180Kg. The largest Power Plate is 158Kg.
A bit worrying he is the “expert” and cant count.
(5) The myth that you have to start at 30Hz is born from lack of education . The body is born with the ability to respond to involuntary reflex training. You dont need to work up to it.
(6) It is true they are used as “therapy” devices by Doctors and Physios. This lighter work is all they are good for.
That is a long way from proper “training”.
And to end it on a positive note:
If they are the best and everything they say is true , regarding steel Vs Plastic , Fq settings , training etc…
Then why when they came up against us they crumbled and we took all their customers. The last “Power Plate ” studio in N.Z. closed in March.
Is that not the real test and they failed ?
November 18th, 2007
This from someones weight loss blog…
Saturday, 19 May 2007
Power Plate Has Arrived
My Power Plate is here!! It came on May 17th - our wedding anniversary!
I haven’t been able to use it yet because it needs a rubber mat underneath it. When we switched it on first it was on our tiled floor in our conservatory and it literally shook the house with the vibrations - it sounded like a pneumatic drill. Could definitely cause some damage to the house.
Complete blog below…..
http://guccigirl-3stone20kgtolose.blogspot.com/2007/05/power-plate-has-arrived.html