The Effect of Pivotal Machines on Posture
Most Pivotal platforms have a range of 0-10mm amplitude and go up to about 30hz. The amplitude is changed by simply placing your feet closer towards the centre or outside of the plate. This allows for easy use without having to push a button - however - like everything it has its drawbacks.
The simple maths
If the machine is working at 15hz per foot (30hz), and if each foot is traveling 5mm up and 5mm down per second that is a 10mm distance of travel required from each side of the body.
If one foot should be out of place even to a degree of 1mm the difference in distance traveled by each leg will be actually be…
- 1mm x 2 = 2mm (actual distanced traveled)
- 2mm x 15hz = 30mm
- 30mm x 60sec = 1800mm
So the difference traveled between the two halves of the body is 1.8 meters each minute in contact with the plate - and that is with only a 1mm error.
In the reality of running a studio I have to constantly correct my customers’ posture all the time (no matter how long they have been coming). There is no way people are going to do this properly without supervision and in a controlled environment.
Potential problems?
I cannot account for the effect this type of error will have on a person long term, as all my equations work on an energy in = energy out principle.
Now it may also be a leap to say it will do damage but from how I work I do not see how it could be good either (apart from certain physio applications).
Questions to ask
- Why is this not even being discussed?
- Why are there no markers on Pivotal plates for precise foot placement and why have some companies actually removed them making it appear unimportant?
Given the above has not been mentioned in any material released and promoted by pivotal companies - I have to ask if they even understand what they are dealing with.
This potential problem is being ignored by even the best manufacturers that have been at the forefront of safety issues in the past and I am disappointed to see them fall over when it counts. Even if they all disagree with my physics they must at least still acknowledge the issue of “unbalanced” training.
I hope those in the Pivotal sector use this as a opportunity to debate this subject.
Disclosure
I myself made a decision not to introduce my Pivotal units into studios until I can be assured of a certain level of education within the entire industry - as anything we did would be replicated and mis-used if not understood.
46 Comments
- mike Hair
September 19th, 2007We have had pivotal machines since january 06 and not once have we been contacted about the safety of the machines, in-fact we were flown over to Australia by the distributor to show him how to exercise properly on them, thats when alarm bells started ringing!
You are right Lloyd, most people are importing and selling machines to make a fast dollar with no regards to the long term implications for what the customer is doing. A question…
Mike you have been running Pivotal units since day one and they know the trouble you have had .
We know Pivotal companies visit these sites regularly as is evidenced by their remarks.
Not one has voluntarily contacted you to share education and safety practices for the sake of the consumer.
What does that tell you about their motivation ?
- mike Hair
September 19th, 2007money money money. the filthy lucre!
- John Weatherly
September 28th, 2007An interesting book I ran across is “Junk Science” by Dan Agin, PhD (pub in 2007 by St. Martin’s Press). From p.40-41 is the following”
“The Office of Research Integrity (ORI) of the U.S. National Institutes of Health publishes yearly reports of discoved fabrication of data by NIH grantees. Between 1993-1997, sixty-one researchers receiving grants were involved in the fabrication of data. The total number of NIH grants during the same period was approximately 150,000.”
“Another approach to the question of the magnitude of the problem is to consider what working scientists apparently know: In one survey, published in American Scientist in 1993, between 6 and 9 percent of scientist respondents said they were personally aware of results that had been plagiarized or fabricated within their faculties. Take the middle percentage (7.5 percent) of science faculties in the world, and the apparent result is the existence fo enough corrupted installations to produce thousands of fraudulent research papers each year.”
“In general, the idea that only a few fraudulent scientific papers are published each year is probably complete fallacy. What is true is that few frauds are exposed and therefore known to the science community - with even fewer known to the public.”
Now my comments: Consider these people are “scientists.” Is it any wonder in exercise with virtually no licensure or any type of credential required to practice - look at all the personal trainers and strength coaches that haven’t even had a basic anatomy or physiology course as I mentioned on another post - that we have a bunch of quacks and frauds? Now, look at something like vibration being used by these people. It is very scary!
Hey, haven’t seen any comments from David Bazett-Jones lately. I wonder what he thinks about the above as he is a researcher?
Not surprising at all considering the desperation I witnesses at those trying to get a grant for VT research over here. Very little money and alot more in fighting than you would expect.
Unhealthy environment that would breed all kinds of ethical issues.
Something interesting has come to my attention from the private response I recieved about the above article…
A number of companys leading experts have admited that for some time now they come onto this site to read the new articles and following blogs. Some keen enough to do it evey day and some make their staff read it .
But despite this….
(a) No comments are made about the articles.
(b) Apart from T.C. ,Giovanni and Mike Hair not one has even attempted to give free advice to the public asking questions.
I wonder if they would care enough to jump in if you paid them ?
- Harvey
October 1st, 2007So what would you say are the positive and negative effects on posture using pivotal vibrations?
Has anyone ever considered usiung two linear vibrating plates and have them at opposite synchronisation? you could then get a pivotal effect without having to worry about the changes in amplitude due to foot displacement
Yes the effect is very interesting with both the Pivotal and Lineal system coming in waves . A good all rounder unit but not something the public was ready for yet.
I will release those units into the studios when Lineal is masterted.
An Asian company is now producing Pivotal platforms with only 50 and 60hz settings. Way outside any safety settings anyone recommends.
And some Australian is selling them to other Australians. How do these people sleep at night.
- mike Hair
October 9th, 2007I would have thought there was enough info on the web now for people to make an informed decision before they got mixed up with a bad machine. 50/60 Hz is absolutely ridiculous, ours go up to 40hz but we don’t go beyond 24 hz.
I am hoping it is just a case of ” zero education” from the company selling them ( which is worrying in itself ) and the machine still functions at 1-30hz in real life.
I still do not want those 50/60 hz Fqs even advertised as Ok by any company.
- MikeyB
October 9th, 2007This Looks like the OJO machine that is sold on trademe from a company in wellington.
Is this correct? Yes , but their units go from 1-30hz.
My money will be on this scenario.
The input current for the motors will be listed at 50/60hz on the specs and this company has just copied them.
I contacted the company about the error and they sent me this message….
Lloyd
Who are you and I have no idea as to what you are talking about??
DO YOU HAVE THE CORRECT MACHINE - we have medical and university back up of
the facts - all our documentation is prepared and vetted by both these
entities - forget about AsiaBE WARNED!!! WE ARE VERY CONCIOUS OF OUR NAME AND REPUTATION and we will
leave no stone unturned to LEGALLY protect it
———————————————————————————————————–Nice one guys threaten me instead of sorting the problem out , that will work.
- Di Heap
October 10th, 2007Did you also read the bottom line of the product details which says the fq is 180-640 cycles/min ie 3-10Hz..seems they have no idea which it is, this or 50-60Hz.
Just had a big laugh over one of the faq on that site: I’ve read this before so it’s not new but it seems that there’s no hope for my poor brain *laughs* It’s going to get become desynchronized over time because I use a two motor WBV platform. They say that has detrimental effects on brain and body synchronization.
Of course their rationale is simply to promote their Single Motor machines!!! Then they have an exception to the rule, just as another site saying the same thing has.
Also they tell me that WBV will improve my internal energy, or “Chi”, which can be depleted through conventional training methods and that using free weights or machines will burn vital energy reserves without really replacing the lost capacity etc, etc.
There are biological reasons why we feel “better” after doing WBV; changes that occur in the brain.. Okay so it sounds more enticing to say it will improve my Chi but to denounce other fitness methods like weights is not smart at all.
- Di Heap
October 10th, 2007Also they are very confused. Another statement in the faq says:
a key difference between Whole Body Vibration equipment and most other devices is that all Whole Body Vibration machines only use one motor for the vibration. This is critical information of which most manufacturers are not aware.
- So, if “all Whole Body Vibration machines only use one motor” what the heck are the machines that I train on? *laughs* I know they have two motors and they vibrate my whole body.. seems you need a new term, Lloyd, or these guys need to rethink what they are saying.
I have been sent a e-mail saying that the motors run on a 50/60hz input supply. And the company did not know that Fq was used as a speed rating in Vibration Training. It was my misinterpretation not their lack of education that caused any confusion.
But now they claim the unit only runs from 3-10hz (
180~640 cycles per minute ).Wonder if they got that right. Time will tell. or I will.
- MikeyB
October 10th, 2007Di they say that Whole Body Vibration machines only use 1 motor. It is very confusing but it is because WBV is what they call their company/machine. But when you read it it sounds like they are talking about the whole industry. They surely cannot use WBV as there brand name can they?
That is why I am trying to get the industry to use the term “Vibration Training”.
It cant be trademarked and I can block companies from using it as a tradename as it is to close to Vibra-Train.
- MikeyB
October 10th, 2007Yes Vibra-Train was a great move for name choices Lloyd.
My friends studio is called Peak Vibe and he rekons 95% of his clients still call him Vibra Train even when they have been coming for over a year!Rekons it is hell when someone refers a person and they rind directory and ask for the number for Vibra Train. So you’ve got everyone there hahaha.
But with you saying you can block people using the term vibration training because its so close. Would you honestly do that?
For example his business cards read “Peak Vibe - Vibration Training”I’m sure it would be hard to trade mark that term
- Di Heap
October 10th, 2007Mikey, No one can use Vibration Training as a company name as it’s been trademarked and then abandoned as a generic term. This means it can be used on your friend’s business card. That’s how it is meant to be used.
I deliberatly applied and then abandoned the term in 2 catagories to block others from charging the smaller businesses/guy for use of the name in the future.
If you look at the records you will see that was some peoples plan all along , to make off others hard work . Someone even tried to trademark Vibra-train after I started it.
http://www.iponz.govt.nz/pls/web/dbssiten.main
One individual actually claimed he invented the term Vibration Training and tried to trademark it.
One comment for that , “get a skill and a real job.”
With the person who tried to steal my name “VibraTrain” was used in the hopes it would get through.
As for Vibration Training…
If you look at the Trademark number you will see it was given the application number 717642 , someone applied again at 730193. I could have pushed it through in that time due to “priority consent” as it had never been used before in advertising or general publications.
Poetic justice….
But as they say , “birds of a feather….” both those business people got together and failed in their master plans.
I hope your mate appreciates the fact that he can use that term forever with no stings attached and how close it came to being different.
I will say one thing , the things I have seen people do to each other in the last 3 yrs would make you sick.
One day I will write a book.
Just to clarify some history…
I actually came up with “Vibra-Train” before I set up the first Powerplate studio. The first PowerPlate studio was meant to be called Vibra-Train and carry the Powerplate machines, but they didnt like it or understand the potential future of the name ( good call guys ).
Up till that point what we did was only refered to a “WBV” or “Vibration Therapy” which PowerPlate had trademarked. But I was trying to design a TRAINING industry not a THERAPY industry ?
In my opinion…
Powerplate sounded like a George Foreman Grill.
Therapy sounded like you needed to be sick to do it.- Di Heap
October 10th, 2007Power-plate does sound more like a cooking instrument. You’ve got it made with Vibra-Train..very clever.. It works as it explains the use of the machines. Anything with Vibe in it..well, it’s okay but it crosses over to other industries.
I’m glad that “Vibration Training” is free to use as that put beside any other name fully explains what it is.
- Matty
November 3rd, 2007I am little confused by this article about 1 point.
It says…
If the machine is working at 15hz per foot (30hz), and if each foot is traveling 5mm up and 5mm down per second that is a 10mm distance of travel required from each side of the body.I’m confused about the hz.
If a speed is set at 30hz, wouldn’t this mean that both feet are doing 30hz each? not 15hz per foot?To make it clear and for example only, if the machine was set to 1hz, this would mean the plate does one full cycle up and down in 1 second.
With your feet on the machine, both feet would go up and down with the plate and one full cycle also.
Meaning both feet would be 1hz each, not 1/2 hz each?To put it another way, if the both feet were on the plate at 1hz for just 1 second, then both feet would have travelled up/down and back to their initial position once (one full cycle).
Am I getting this wrong?
The confusion…
I have witnessed a salesman state that one “movement” was 1Hz and another say 1 complete rotation on the motor was 1hz. As these are obviously complete opposites from each other( depending on design ) I tried no to focus to much on this.
I just wanted to point out an unbalanced equation is dangerous , and why.
Note: Even after personal contact with the major brands selling these units , I have had no response re safety issues or generic terms. Only the Lineal market seems to be in open communication.
- Matty
November 3rd, 2007Thanks Lloyd
I’m still not sure if I understand correctly though.
What is considered 1hz? 1 full cycle of the platform?
I understand this doesn’t affect the point of the article, I’d just like to know.
Yes , one full cycle of the movement , no matter what direction zero>peak>zero.
- Matty
November 4th, 2007Sorry to drag this on, but a cycle in electricity is
zero>peak+>zero>peak->zero
is this the same with the platform of a pivotal machine?
Sorry I understand your meaning now. My mix up ,I try to keep away from Sine waves as it does not represent all vibrational movement , some do not have a middle Zero rating to drop below.
Just one full movement , returning to its original position is what is considered 1Hz in Vibration Training.
I will now fully explain the reason we have this problem with marketers changing the meaning of Fq.
The way a Pivotal machine is usually designed means alot of pressure is put on the bearings , over a certain speed they simply just get chewed up. This does not help when most tests showed that 27hz was the most active setting for the muscles.
To make matters worse , I had made it very clear on most of the material I write I use 43hz as a standard workout setting alot of marketers believed that faster was better for every unit built ( some still have this problem ) .
Some studios in their confusion even ran their machines on the highest settings they had (30Hz) untill they all blew up.
My only guess is to counter this problem the poorly educated marketers re-adjusted the terms they used to things like ” 15hz on Pivotal is equivilant to 30hz on Lineal because you double the movement “.
This is only a guess but seems the most logical conclusion .
I suppose looking at what we write here on this site , it will always be a fine line between “over simplication” or “over complication” of ideas when dealing with a new science and the public.
- Matty
November 5th, 2007Thanks very much for clearing that up for me Lloyd.
It is so hard to fully understand WBV, I find there is such a lack of this kind of information out there.
One thing that amazes me is that, I as a consumer, who has done just a little research on WBV, seem to have more knowledge than some running professional studios etc..
I went to a free power plate session a few weeks ago, they weren’t even aware of different platforms. They told me galileo etc were just the same as power plate.
One last thing about your last post, you say…
some do not have a middle Zero rating to drop below.I can’t figure this one out.
Are you talking still of a pivotal unit?Aren’t all pivotal units just like a see-saw?
There has to be a zero. No , I am actually refering to other forms of Lineal Vibration Engineering . There is no rest point ( zero).
AKA…
When you turn off your windsheild wipers , they return to the lowest point, but that is a design feature. If you turn off the ignition while they are on, they come to rest mid-cycle.
Mike,
Lloyd has been telling me about you for some time now. I had asked him a while back to get me more infomration on your training regimine with Pivotal platforms. I carry a solid pivotal unit and would like to offer some more tips to my customers. I am open to any new positions or concepts you may have come across in your training. Will you visit the weightlossvibration website and contact me through the email form there and leave me some contact information?Lloyd– Maybe you should contact a podiatrist and ask him his opinion. I see your point but I also know that my feet as well as others are not identical. The action of running or walking causes impact vibrations to transfer into the body. Look at the soles of your shoes. Chances are they are not worn identically on each foot. Wouldn’t that mean that our natural action of walking or running is innately offset to beign with? Regardless of even foot placement on a pivotal platform, a person’s feet would have to lay perfectly evenly on that platform to avoid any deviation. Since many people do not stand completely evenly on both of thier feet, wouldn’t there be a natural offset with any type of WBV platform?
Yes , but for a few points…
(a) We do not naturally walk 15 paces a second , the number of movements we are dealing with are out of a normal persons reach or imagination.
(b) A natural variation is not the same as careless training.
- Di
November 13th, 2007Our bodies can compensate for quite a variance in natural walking style, leg length discrepancies etc but that’s because we grow up/develop with these variations. If we have an accident, like a fall, it can show up the previously unknown discrepancy which then presents as a problem/painful back or leg and can need treatment more than that caused by the accident. Wrong positioning on a wbv platform (whatever type) could, surely hasten the time when natural variance becomes a painful problem!
- Di
November 13th, 2007The converse is also true. For me, wbv on a high quality platform facilitated the healing process. Gone past that now and given me much improved strength and fitness. The action of endurance running or walking (such as 10 - 20km races on trail) does cause impact vibrations to the body but, for me, the previous weaknesses I had are barely affected now, after almost a year of wbv. If I do feel discomfort in previously weak areas, a session or two of quality wbv restores my fitness. In someone younger than me, I think the weaknesses would heal completely and not return.
Lloyd after thinking long and hard about your points, I realized that more expertise would be needed to come up with an aswer.
So, I called a physical therapist in Oregon who has worked at over 15 clinics including one with a Pivotal WBV machine.
He explained that the staggered foot placement could be beneficial for core strengthening. He also explained that he uses a staggered resistance training program where he has his patients use different weights in each hand thus forcing the body to balance one side of the body against the other.
I am hoping to have his clinic perform more tests with my unit. In theory both of you could be right. Any other PT’s or Chiros with an opinion on this?
I have said quite often that all units have massive Physio applications. But the programs always have to be “purpose” driven by good solid theory , like you are describing.
The fact the Physio is working towards “unbalanced training ” to balance up the body should indicate how possable it would be to cause the opposite reaction if people are allowed to favour one side on a consistant basis.
September 19th, 2007
Just as predicted, I have received no feedback from my concerns re foot placement on Pivotal units and my private e-mails to companies remain unanswered.
The longer they leave it, the less they look like they care. As it would appear they are far more concerned about loss of sales than public safety.