Personal Trainer Sal Marinello does a (second) thorough debunking of vibration training machines.
In the May 2007 edition of the (NSCA) Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, there are four studies that deal with the effects of WBV and the results of these studies do little to further the claims of WBVers that this mode of training is suitable for the masses. As a matter of fact these studies should serve to marginalize WBV, as consumers see how ineffective WBV is.
Marinello goes on to explain that only “the infirm” should be exposed to WBV training, and that research doesn’t really support benefits for those “who are in shape”.
The marketing types that are trying to push these ineffective and expensive pieces of equipment on the unsuspecting public will invoke the meaningless intricacies that they alone have developed with regard to the science behind the WBV fad.
{ 78 comments… read them below or add one }
Sorry….
This guy cant be taken seriously , he stated that ” Vibration Training cant work ” 12 months ago. With the only results he will take as proof is if athletes used in trials gain super strenght or speed. And disregarded NASAs trails as stupid since we all wont get into space anytime soon.
After 12 months he has still not trialed a unit himself , but written 4 blogs on the issue.
Critic…?
Last time I checked a real critic looked at the art , went to see the movie or at least put some effort into an opinion.
This is beyond lazy.
For reasons only known to himself Sal Marinello has completely dismissed WBV as a fad. He’s a private Professional Strength and Conditioning Coach plus Head football and strength coach/trainer in a High School, so he’s doing a disservice to the those he’s supposed to be helping by his refusal to even try WBV for himself.
He puts all variations of WBV into one grouping and so he comments on hand held vibrating dumbells as if they were a high force vibration machine. He uses any results he can find of Studies that show poor or inconclusive results to further his claims and he writes of a positive result study as if it were suggesting reluctant acceptance to the remote possibility that WBV “might” work in “some” situations, using the careful wording of the study result as if it were something negative.
In fact that study shows what I already know from my partner and my own experience…Energy Expenditure and Perceived Exertion are higher when doing semi-squat position with vibration compared with non vibration squat and heart rate isn’t significantly changed. Also EE and PE remain higher during recovery.
So, to quote from the study result [Thus, it would appear that HS (half-squat)strength training could be rendered more energy-efficient through the addition of vibration. Moreover, it would be feasible to introduce vibration exercises into regular training programs, particularly those whose key objective is muscle hypertrophy along with fat reduction.]
Sounds good to me and also it’s been proven in my and many others experience. I don’t understand how Sal Marinello can debunk this… myopic perhaps?
Note: Most invention is 99% failure only 1% success.
People who do not invent but only report seldom understand this . The concept that everything we use from cradle to grave is credited to people who think outside the square is beyond some .
There is nothing wrong with being a “user” of items , as we are not all intelligent enough to be inventors, but to defiantly refuse to aknowledge where these ideas came from is silly.
Hell I still get freaked out at how someone came to invent my radio. It caves my head in.
And funny enough…
This is the response David Sarnoff got from his associates in response to his urgings for investment
in the radio in the 1920s.
“The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay
for a message sent to nobody in particular?”
I suppose I should thank Sal for drawing attention to the comments from the latest research…
“WBV will be an ideal therapy for people with low-performance capacity”
“Appears that half-squat strength training could be rendered more energy efficient through addition of vibration,”
“feasible to introduce WBV into regular training programs for purpose of muscle hypertrophy and fat reduction.”
By attacking this fellow instead of providing evidence is rather dull.
I think that more research needs to be done into WBV, I keep an open mind and hope that credible evidence will come to light. Whatever the outcome, the technology appears to be promising.
WBV will never replace another form of exercise despite any claims. WBV is not the best form of training either as there is no best form of anything.
WBV might be good to add to a proper exercise program, and not marketed as “THE” only exerise regime you will need. Sorry but this is what it is being marketed as by pretty much everybody.
Also there should be a section here with “Research Links”, right next to the vendors and terms. Then this forum might start to achieve more of its purpose.
The problem is Robert the past research has been crap. Never helped me a bit.
And the new researchers seem to be flying blind into some areas.
The reason for giving Sal a rev-up is his approch to new products or ideas. He simply doesnt like them , and he teaches kids at a high school ?
My comment to Sal about our method to help fight obesity… Oct/2006
“What I am saying is these people need a stepping stone to simple movement. Not a size 8 bikini. They are beyond our standard advice. Which is what the ” fitness industry ” has refused to acknowledge.
Robert
I can’t recall anywhere on this forum where somebody has stated WBV is “THE” only excercise regime you will need.
Hell of operated my own studio for 18 months and i have never claimed WBV to be the whole answer, in fact i encourage all my clients to go to a gym or at the very least start a walking programme. WBV is simply another tool in the training tool box, and a very effective one at that.
Maybe you were reading the wrong forum?
As far as Lloyd attacking Sal, The guy has written about 4 papers on WBV and from what I understand he won’t even try it for himself, “now thats what I call an educated opinion” NOT!
I recall reading over Sal’s postings on this and Lloyd’s responses at the time.
It’s really interesting from a human nature perspective regarding some athletic trainers biases and WBV or VT or whatever your preference is for referring to the topic we all come here to read up on.
A few things come to mind regarding Sal’s (and others) lack of acknowledgement:
First there are so many vibration studies that are done so many different ways on different typed subjects using different methods etc. etc. that it makes it easy to poke holes in a specific study and link that to VT effectiveness- across the board.
Is it disingenuous- yeah. Is it truthful- not outside of that specific study, its parameters and the researchers involved, but it is portrayed as VT being a waste of time/money in all applications- that’s what is wrong.
The real reason I think some people don’t want to acknowledge VT yet or at all is because(and I have seen this) some…some “old school” type trainers believe that it is “cheating” in a sense. They’ve always trained people and themselves as putting in the hard work etc. etc. Now here comes VT with all its proclaimed efficiencies and ….well, it’s a bit threatening. It should’nt be, as we all know it’s just a piece(but a very integral one at that) of a training regimen, but yikes…if you’ve devoted your entire practice to doing something one way and something new comes in that would seem to threaten that, reflexively you get defensive. Now if those same folks took the time to learn about VT and where it could apply within their training systems-they would’nt see it as a threat nor a gimmick….but that takes time/curiosity to invest in learning about it. These all over the board research studies just make it easy for them to dismiss without having learn firsthand…besides, paradigm shifts are a hassle(:
A decade from now I don’t think that resistance will be around. VT will be more visible, and those same nay-saying trainers will have seen the improvements firsthand in their colleagues or trainees they cross paths with.
I was in the same boat since I had only used a Power Plate. Then I was able to try the Wave and Hypergravity…I’m a doubting Thomas no more.
Patience y’all….Patience.
Another point to make Sal ,
I have 25 studios , lots of staff at each one, why havn’t I gotten half of them to jump on to the forums , and pose as happy customers. I could bomb the net with so much propaganda no-one would know which way was up and you know it.
I do not think you even remotely understand my ideas , which is why you are finding it hard to deal with which is Ok. But I can find no excuse for your deliberate attempt to confuse readers by suggesting electricity is the same as vibration. This was not an honest thing to do.
It was a tricky attempt to confuse the reader.
Not Cricket mate.
Good luck to the Ostriches! Obviously, arrogance borne of past knowledge and present success is a great bar to learning. Despite cheap, inefficient WBV units, the bottom line results people experience with WBV will simply not go away.
Theoreticians separated from practical assessments will keep theorizing while the rest of us will continue getting benefits. (Ostriches are not only native to Australia it would seem!)
Nalin
**The following comment was also posted on the Health Skeptic blog and is posted here for your viewing on this site**
I must start my lengthy comment with the following points:
-I am a researcher, with great interest in WBV. However, I try to continue to maintain a level of questioning so that my view isnt too biased (everyone has some level of bias). My goal is to increase the knowledge of WBV in the scientific community and hopefully, convey that to the consumer through various media (like this one).
-I do not claim to know everything about WBV and therefore, I will say that everything is much not known about WBV and we are still learning (even if some feel that it is slowly). Potential buyers must be presented with an even view of WBV; that is has some potential but a lot is still not known about it, especially over the long-term.
-I am tired of the personal attacks against myself (see comment #22) and others on these blogs and my aim in these comments is to fully inform those individuals that stumble upon this article. Hopefully they will take the time to read this far.
My comments to Sals article:
General Comment: When reading a research article, an individual can remove a single sentence (or part of a sentence) and discuss it as an item that is supportive of their point of view. However, this is essentially wrong when it comes to critiquing research. All information presented must be taken in the context of the article, what was measured, and the limitations (all studies have them). This is a common mistake in those who are not schooled in reading research (and reading research is a hard skill to learn). Dont be drawn into either side of the argument by accepting this as a scientific tactic since it will only mislead you (both for and against WBV).
1) Manufacturers . . . have seized upon an incredibly thin volume of research in order to support the claims that WBV training can improve fitness levels.
This is a very true statement. In the world of research, WBV is a newborn baby. And manufacturers and marketers do what they do. Just because they abuse the research to support their sales though, doesnt make WBV inherently bad or inefficient. Marketing is not limited to WBV and buyers must beware in regards to everything that is thrown at them, not just WBV.
2) Marketers of these devices have been making the claims that WBV is ideal for all members of the population despite the lack of any real evidence.
The fact is that we dont know if it is ideal or not. As with any thing that differs from a traditional resistance training and cardio workout, almost no one will argue that it is the best or only workout, by itself. However, it might be a great starting point, temporary supplement, and addition to the norm (just as many fads are in the fitness industry, i.e. kettlebells or chains). Still, doesnt mean that it is bad or inefficient.
3) Most WBVers rely on some research done by NASA, and the former USSR
Actually, there are over 200 articles on WBV out there (at least that I have found). Take a look at any WBV site and you will see that they list a multitude of articles (many of which dont apply to WBV or are not full research articles at all). The NASA/USSR concept is typically used in explaining the origins of WBV. Not that much research, actually, has been published by NASA or from the former USSR. Just in July so far, there have been 2 studies published (not including a Rubin study and a direct vibration study). I would say the research is very current.
4) Since astronauts are the only folks who are going to be weightless anytime soon, the results of zero gravity WBV studies dont pertain to consumers.
Actually, zero gravity does pertain since there are a huge number of the worlds population that are wheel chair bound (i.e. non-weight bearing on their legs) and thus, suffer from rapid muscle atrophy and bone loss. Since astronauts lose these even faster than these individuals or those with osteoporosis, they are a very good group to use. This is also a good model to compare to osteoporosis, a huge problem facing an ever aging generation (at least in the US).
5) And of course there are the testimonials from those folks who have allegedly benefited . . .
Moot point, you could say this with almost anything. All companies use testimonials or endorsements to sell things. Nothing new and not isolated to WBV.
6) Other research touted by the WBV industry is similarly flawed and should be viewed as marketing department generated research and not scientific data.
I would think that those individuals who reviewed the studies that you proclaim to be worthless and the journals that published them would beg to differ. While everyone is welcome to their opinion, I dont remember what qualifications Sal has to make this judgment. Masters or PhD degree? Or just the bachelors and the CSCS? Have you ever design a research study or taken a research design class? Basic or advanced statistics? Nothing against Sal but I dont think he is qualified to critically analyze research. That is like me trying to perform open-heart surgery; I am sure I could a few cuts and sew it back together but I dont think it would help the individual. This is directly related to my general comment as a lack of understanding of research is evident here (as it is with most who make comments on this blog).
7) These studies rarely mention the massive expense of WBV machines and dont include critical study and analysis that compares WBV to other, less costly modes of exercise.
Last time I checked, the most cost effective models for fitness are gyms since resistance training equipment is also expensive. This is the model that Lloyd uses (and in my opinion, is the best). No single piece of equipment that is somewhat (and up to very) expensive is worth it by itself because no one piece is the panacea for fitness and health. For example, Nautilus started out expensive but the supply and demand of the market drove its price down; it will do the same for WBV machines. My hope though is that WBV becomes integrated in the existing gyms and is not presented as a stand-alone tool.
Also, many studies done on WBV have show it similar (not better or worse) than resistance training. Does this not qualify as critical study and analysis that compares WBV to other, less costly modes of exercise? Or does it only count if it supports an individual viewpoint?
Just because an exercise is ideal for one population doesnt mean that it is worthless for another. For a long time, it was believed that jump training in the elderly was bad for them until someone tried it and found that it is both helpful and can be related to their ability to catch themselves when falling. This is something that has been shown by research.
9) WBV training needs to be performed at joint angles similar to angles used in the performance task to be improved. This reality makes WBV impractical for the vast majority of the population and certainly for anyone who isnt extremely limited.
Actually, this is a common theme in resistance training. It is called sport-specific training. Why would you require an adult of average health do perform deep squats? This doesnt make sense, is not functional, and does not enhance (and may worsen) their workout. If an individual can only move in a restricted range of motion, wouldnt that be better than not moving at all?
10) Its worth noting that this is the first study to investigate the acute effect of UBV as it pertains to sport-specific strength and power, and the researchers found that UBV had no effect.
This is very different than WBV and should not be listed in the same group. A light-weight, vibrating dumbbell would not create enough tension in the muscle in order to cause a reflex of the amount necessary to elicit increase neuromuscular activation. Whereas, standing or squatting causes an increased tension in the muscle and vibration can be transmitted more efficiently. Dont confuse yourself and everyone else into believing that this type of vibration is the same as WBV.
11) This science is nothing more than marketing materials on steroids that are designed to intimidate and confuse people into thinking that WBV is a valid mode of training. Throwing scientific sounding terms at people is a tactic used by supplement and equipment companies in an effort to generate sales.
This is a very good point; however, it has been phrased in the wrong way. The science of WBV (which there is a science behind it) is being used in the unethically by marketers in that they present a bunch of articles on their web sites thinking that quantity will show that WBV works. I have seen articles on sites (including vibra-train.com) that have utilized a study called Suppressive mechanism of gastric mobility by WBV, showing their obvious need to provide any research just to obtain quantity. In reality, this industrial study showed that WBV at 4 Hz for 10 minutes causes some gastrointestinal symptoms (i.e. reduced mobility due to suppressed intestinal muscle activity). I dont know why someone would want to show this as backup for their device or training method, but it is there in many places. This is a perfect example of misused research, not bad science.
12) Only the most infirm should be exposed to WBV training
Great point because WBV is going to increase in the treatment of different neuro-, muscle, skeletal conditions. It will be a great rehabilitation tool and will be used all over the world. Of this, I am confident.
13) These researchers found that squatting at a greater frequency helps to maximize energy expenditure during exercise with or without WBV.
It is too bad you took this sentence out of context since the next sentence says that cycle time duration (how fast they squat) must be controlled with vibration exercise is applied. This is applicable to future research on WBV and energy expenditure since how fast individuals squat on a platform changes the energy expenditure (something to be controlled for in future research).
This study also indicated that WBV may also be of interest to those who exercise, at least partly for weight control. This means that WBV helps with individuals who need to lose weight (many of us). Furthermore, this study reports that individuals wanting to lose weight should perform slower movements on the WBV machine in order to metabolize fat. The article goes on to say that individuals also need to change their diet for results in order to achieve a negative energy balance (i.e. lose weight).
14) PE is measured by the researchers’ observations as to how hard the subjects are working at a given task
Sorry but you need to review your textbooks for what PE is. It is also called the Borg Scale and is actually a measure of the participants perception of how hard the task was. When this is done before and after an activity, it has been found to be a reliable (is consistent) and objective tool. If this study is flawed because of this test (which it is not), then there are over 2000 articles that are flawed because they use this scale as well, and many of them are traditional resistance training studies. Ironic, isnt it?!?!
http://tinyurl.com/2os45r
This link goes to a “Daily Mail UK” news site and shows a pic of Madonna purportedly after using Power-Plate. Warning! Page is graphic and funny! (in my opinion).
No way would anyone end up looking like that from using WBV. I hope not! Maybe I should send the pic to Sal to show him that WBV does work but I suspect Madonna’s vegan diet and any other exercise regime she follows is creating that effect more so than WBV or maybe the pic has been airbrushed and it’s a joke.
I like one of the comments on that page: “Public warning: women, please do not aspire to look like this.”
It has been interesting reviewing the dialogue on WBV. I am an orthopaedic physical therapist investigating the potential benefits and merits of WBV for use in a clinical setting. I will have an opportunity to ‘demo’ a device in a week however it seems clear to me from the dialogue that the ‘jury is still out’ on WBV? Yes? Without research to support its efficacy and safety for use on a patient population I would find myself in a court room fairly quickly should a patient of mine suffer some untoward response whether it be as a result of WBV or not! I will at least take the time to test one (Vibraflex made by Orthometrix) and evaluate it for myself. Many of the comments made regarding human physiology and principles of sport/activity specific traing are correct. WBV would have little value unless you could also mimic some sort of functional movement while using it? We live in an ‘isotontic’ environment which is also why Nautilus is not a ‘functional’ way to train your muscular system. It is safer due to the variable resistance thru range and would me more appropriate in a rehab setting rather than as part of a ‘normal’ exercise program.
I would welcome any comments/recommendations from those that know much more about WBV than I on their perceived benefits to clientele in an outpatient clinical setting.
Regards.
Scott,
You are absolutely justified to be cautious in regard to WBV. There is much that is not known about it, especially when looking at a clinical population. As a Certified/Licensed Athletic Trainer (Athletic Therapist in many other countries), I am appreciative of the population that you serve. As a research, I feel this population is where the most benefit can be elicited from WBV and this is where much of my research is beginning to go. I feel that WBV initially (and conservatively) can be used as a warm-up for this population. Take a person who is relatively immobile. WBV might increase the range of motion so that the individual has greater mobility to perform an exercise. Chronic use has been shown to increase strength, even in a static position; which is all an immobile individual can do. There are many possibilities and functional applications since strength and mobility are not as important factors as they are in the isotonic environment.
As always, caution is necessary because WBV manufacturers want us to believe that it is the panacea for all that ails the world. However, much still relies on theories and a small amount of research. I don’t feel that you would have legal worries with using this, especially if you can run it by the patients’ MD. There are a few conditions that are contraindicated for it but other than that it is safe in relatively short amounts of time (5-10 minutes). Give a try and ask to keep the machine for a bit so you can try it out before committing.
My two cents.
David, Reading over previous posts I see this comment
[My hope though is that WBV becomes integrated in the existing gyms and is not presented as a stand-alone tool.]
Above you state that you are a Certified/Licensed Athletic Trainer. I am not qualified in anything that relates to Athletics so you could say that I am not qualified to have an opinion but I do have one on this topic: I hope that WBV never becomes solely integrated into Gyms. In fact I’d like to see it taken out of Gyms altogether (this is my opinion and I don’t know what Lloyd or any other Manufacturer or Instructor thinks). Scott Sherman is concerned about the use of WBV in an Orthopedic clinical setting and you answer that he is justified to be concerned. This makes your previous statement hard to understand. WBV is a very specific “tool” and there is need for an Instructor even for those who are very familiar with the program and machines as these people sometimes make serious mistakes with positions and machine settings. I am in a Studio often enough to have observed this first-hand.
Why bother with Scientific studies if the end result of these is to reduce WBV to it’s lowest common “safe” denominator and place machines in the corner of gyms for unsupervised use. I’ve seen a paper where Power-Plate states that, that is acceptable use so maybe it depends on the type/force/suitability of the brand of machine and of course I can only comment knowledgeably on this, on the machines I use but, heck, I’d have hurt myself long ago If I’d been allowed use in a Gym without a specifically trained Instructor.
Di,
You are always allowed to have an opinion (since you present it as an opinion and not a fact). And just because you are not involved in athletics doesnt mean you know nothing on the topic. Your confusion by my comment is justified; let me explain further.
I actually agree with Lloyd that WBV machines could be dangerous if people take them home and abuse them. This is the same with supplements like Ephedra (used for centuries in the Eastern world but abused by people who believe more is better). Everything can be dangerous if abused. My hope is that WBV will be integrated with conventional gyms (i.e. access to resistance training and cardio, which could also be in a WBV studio) to offer the full array of options to users. I dont think they should be set in the middle of the floor and be allowed to be used free reign. This is dangerous. I would hope that people can become certified to use WBV machines and that all machines would have card readers on them so that only individuals who have much experience or those who have an accompanying professional can use them. Now this is probably idealistic but I am entitled to my hopes.
My comments to Scott were made because he no doubt will have the VibraFlex people telling him that it is the best thing since sliced bread. It is a very specific tool and it would require that he does his reading before he uses it. However, from what I have seen, there are not any recommended programs for specific orthopedic concerns. So should he be told not to use it? No, he should be educated (as much as possible) as to the cautions with this technology. Some of this information can be found on this site. Maybe Lloyd would even write an article with me to help these clinicians. Who knows! But this technology should not be withheld from this population when so many could benefit from it. Optimism must be accompanied by care and caution (not rejection).
A different take on all of this……
Currently, there is no regulating board to discern which WBV producte are truly effective. Furthermore there are now over 100 manufacturers of WBV products and almost no one is producing thier own research.
What the public needs to be informed of is that ALL VIBRATION MACHINES ARE NOT THE SAME. Some of these cheaper Chinese models are slapped together, packaged and sold to make a quick buck. I liken these cheaply manufactured machines to the crap you buy on infomercials.
For example in the physical therapy world, commercial TENS units are used for nuero-muscular stimulation. When this technology was exploited by AB Belt products– the market got to its greedy ways. Cheap chinese manufactured products began showing up on store shelves and people began to get hurt because the products were shocking people beyond that product’s intended use.
The only way to prevent this from happening with WVB is to regulate it. All of this bogus supportive reseach that some of these companies use has to stop. I can’t stand it when a company distributing a vertical vibration platform uses supportive research that was done on a tilting platform. Once again ALL WBV IS NOT THE SAME. Each WBV manufacturer should be required to adhere to specific testing standards and publish their test results. This should help keep the industry honest.
I beleive than many consumers who have tried the cheaper models will see few effects from WBV. Some of them might even go on to discredit the technology altogether(Sal are you paying attention?) Anyone who has been on a commercial grade tilt or vertical vibration unit will tell you of thier mostly positive experiences.
My personal experience is definitely a positive one. I have been researching and promoting the use of WBV for almost 2 years now. Recently I began Medvibe – a company dedicated to supplying quality WBV products to the Medical and Fitness communities. Our first product the
MV-Pro will mostly be reserved for Gyms, Doctors, PT’s and Chiropractors.
It is a tilt vibration platform run on a BLDC motor with 35 adjustable speed settings. Recently the product was used in an Orthopedic Surgeons office for post-op rehabilitation. This Doctor has and will be testing the effectiveness of my WBV unit on post total hip and knee replacement on some of his patients.
Dont think this is a miracle solution– medical advancement are made by trial and error. My hope is that certain WBV machines gain recognition as effective complimentary or supplementary training methods for rehab.
Also LA Fitness in Scottsdale, Arizona is testing my product for their Body of Change personal training program. I put every trianer at that location through a demonstration workout. The responses were very positive. One trainer even said she was feeling muscles engage which she couldn’t duplicate on any other machine in the gym.
LLoyd– you mentioned in a post above that you could have some of your trainers flood this site with testimony. Please do?
I will keep you all posted on the result form both the surgeon and the Trainers as soon as I hear more from both of them. Until then— does any one have any suggestions on product testing requirements?
The basic test you need done for a Pivotal unit is this…
(a) Have an accelerometer put on one end of the platform.
(b) Gets Fq and 0-peak amplitudes taken on zero weight , then at least 3 different weights up to say 150kg on a medium speed ( 12hz ). All speeds could be done but it would cost you a fortune for the results to be drawn up.
Getting 3 weights on 1 speed will give you a good indication as to the quality of the unit. You can perform more tests later if you can jusitfy the costs.
Note: Must be human weight in correct position.
(c) Check if they match up with those given by the manufacturor . Remember you need to double the figure with a Pivotal unit to give the vibrations per second if they have added the two halves of the vibration together to get their Hz rating.
I would be very surprised if it didn’t pass , as getting a Pivotal unit to not lose power is very easy. As the load is primarily on the axis , very little load is actually on the motors.
If all is well you now have a good starting point to do tests.
Jon, Do you have a website that tells about your Medvibe machines? I’m not sure you are allowed to post it in here but google only brings up your myspace page.
LLoyd– Thanks for the advice on testing regulations- I will see if we can get that done soon. As for our website, its underway. In the midst of all these product demo’s, I was barely able to break the product away for a photo shoot. All the images went to our graphic designer yesterday and should be up on the site in a matter of weeks.
I stopped into LA Fitness today to get a work out in and spoke with some of the personal trainers. They all seem to love it. One of the managing trainers stated that he was warming his clients up on the MV PRO before their resistance work outs. He claims that some of his clients increased their resistance weight by 30- 40 lbs from his record of thier last work out. He noticed separation in his quadriceps which he claimes he had never seen before. Additionaly he noticed the most common immediate benefit of flexability.
Hopefully this technology lands in a huge chain Gym like LA Fitness so that it can be tested thoroughly and gain the recognition that it deserves.
The demo unit goes back to the Orthopedic surgeon monday for more testing on his patients. He will most likely purchase a unit for his practice and promote it to his patients. I will inform of the results when I hear more.
Hello all. I came back to this site today to see if there were any replies and the dialogue and information has been very helpful. I meet with the sales representatives later today and can share with you my thoughts afterward. I noted in the dialogue there are different types of WBV – vertical, lateral, and tilt? It would seem to me that the type of WBV would be very important as each delivers ‘energy’/ ‘stress’/ ‘loading’ in a different way which is likely to elicit different responses by the body? Is there any agreement out there, or any research supporting one type over another??
I questioned our provincial regulatory body here in Alberta about WBV and this was their reply:
“As Pedro is listing it, and WCPT (World Congress P.T.’s) had PTs making presentations on vibration, we conclude that it is an emerging technology and probably does not fall in the complimentary domain but rather an adjunct to other training tools.”
I will need to clarify exactly what this means however they are approaching WBV cautiously.
Regards,
Scott Sherman
Hi Scott,
Povitol and lineal work the body in 2 different ways, read Lloyds article Pivotal and Lineal Machines on this site for a good explanation.
The biggest issue I see in the future are the plates with “uncontrolled vibrations”, they always call them Tri-something which means they move in 3 different planes during each vibration.
This will cause shearing action on joints which in no way complies with even the thoery of what we are doing. And is the result of bad engineering.
Can anyone tell me of any other exercise that is 3 dimensional in that way? I can only think of 2 plane movements.
Yes funny, how some companies have spent time and money on creating Lineal systems when according to PowerPlate they shouldn’t have bothered and just made something that shakes in all directions.
Im off to pull out that old lawnmower.
Reviewed the Vibraflex yesterday … apparently the Canadian version of the Galileo. I was suitably impressed with the response elicited and without a doubt there are applications in a rehab setting. I would be cautious however using this on fresh joint/ligament reconstructions and/or knee menisectomies/repairs? Could be a nice tool to augment rotator cuff repair rehab with the upper extremity attachment.
As a clinician I was suitably impressed. From a business model standpoint I now have to work it into a setting realizing some cost benefit. As there is limited research out there, at least that I can locate, using WBV in a clinical setting it would be difficult to endorse the benefits using it in rehab protocols without studies saying so. Nonetheless I think some patients would recognize the machine as a value added supplement to their program.
I haven’t received any pricing info yet. Perhaps that will be a stumbling block. I can warm a patient using the traditional hot pack rather than an expensive WBV machine??
Regards,
Scott Sherman
Hi Scott
I am from Edmonton, Alberta. Have you looked into the Wavexercise machine manufactured in Toronto? I had a chance to try one and review it and thought it to be excellent with my lay person knowledge.
No I haven’t Gail. A patient of mine has joined the salesforce of Orthometrix and is selling this machine. This is how I came into contact with WBV. I was not actively searching out companies. Since the background of this machine is the Galileo and it has a track record of construction and research I would tend to stay with this unless another product suitably compares.
Ok Im not making it a point to rip on Powerplate but I found this article that sheds light on thier unethical practices. The last line of this mentions a lawsuit from a New Zealand subsidiary. Lloyd- is that your doing?
http://www.ameinfo.com/121122.html?rsslink
Yes but they got it wrong..
PowerPlate lost those points in an injunction they tried to put on me. And in fact I got a signed affidavit from the CEO of PowerPlate N.Z. Ltd saying the machines are indeed built in China and not Europe as they claimed.
They lost another appeal last week agianst some court action I had on them. The judge said they could no longer apply for any more appeals.
Time for action.
Hallo
Recently i saw at Hypergravity’s site a new model named Gym-O-Vibe . Do anyone have some informations about this model ?
It has a solid design but i didn’t notice any severe upgrade if compared with the Elite Professional Model .
What is your opinion ?
Good for high end use places like gyms. And very much a guys machine.
Been waiting to hear feedback about its function from someone , but didnt ask on here as last time we did we got bombed with dodgy customer endorsements.
From an engineering point it should be sound and personally I am glad someone has produced a platform that looks serious enough to be noticed by the guys. It will help ignite the market in the U.S.
wow.
aesthetically this new HG unit looks like something right out of the terminator movies. very cool. i suppose it would be nice for gyms….but i really think that there isn’t much of a difference other than the new look to go with this new one at 11,500.
You could get the olympic professional and save around 4 grand.
Thanks KG
I have already have the Elite Professional Hypergravity model and i am very happy with it .
I agree with you that the Gym O Vibe is not worth the money because of the other great products of Hypergravity .
I am about to purchase the VibroGym. Do you have any comments on this WBV machine.
Hi Carolle.
Don’t get the domestic model.
The vibrogym is a great machine I have two professional models. The new evolution looks like a good model although a bit pricer. Good Luck
Good Pro Machine , good company. Do not agree with some of their positions/programs though.
But in the top 5% without a doubt.
send me the details of personal trainer i have to check it…
Jerry, If you want to learn about Vibration Training you can read the articles on this website. If you want a personal trainer then maybe go to the site you have linked to on your name (not a recommendation as I am not even in the same country as them).
Jerry, I have just looked at another fitness site and again I see your viral marketing. It suggests that the personal trainers you are advertising are not very good at what they do, if you need to spam websites *laughing*
And Scottsdale is the area the Europlate guys are from.
Happy coincidence ?
It doe’s not matter when you do exercise with personal trainer….
I’m looking into a unit perhaps several for my pilates and dance studios. I’m in the US and am having a hard time finding any wbv units to try in my area (i’m looking in a 200 miles radius). I’ve read till I’m cross-eyed about all the different models. Can you tell me if MedVibe is truly manufactured in the US? I would hate to buy a knock-off machine after 2 months of research. My studios are very small and don’t have the high-volume of a normal gym. We do personal training on reformers mostly and we teach students who want to dance as a career. I thought this WBV training would be effective for injury prevention and post rehab. Your comments and insight would be very appreciated.
Are you wanting to do Pilate type poses on the machines or High Energy Vibration Training ?
The Medvibe units are made in Korea but are better quality than other units from Asia. The owner of MedVibe has been upfront about where the are made in the past. Please confirm this is still the case.
First, thank you for answering my question. So far the gentleman from medvibe has been very upfront in all of our initial chats. I was waiting to hear from you to continue to ask questions about his product. I am interested in helping my clients meet their personal goals…most of my clients are the parents of the dance students. I would like to see the WBV as part of their pilates reformer training, 50 minutes reformer, 10 minutes WBV. I work on stability and alignment issues and also it’s been great for those who have just been diagnosed with osteoporosis or osteopenia. From what I’ve read WBV would be a great addition to what they are doing now. I would also like to have more of the population that is currently frightened of working out be able to strengthen themselves with the WBV. Then they might get to a level to be able to feel comfortable doing other forms of “movement/excercise”. So, I guess to answer your question…I don’t think I’m going to have too many of my clients bounding onto the WBV to maximize their strength. Posing sounds good for now. LOL
My advice would be to buy half of what you want Lineal the other half Pivotal. So your customers not only get a choice but better overall results.
Sal Marinello changes his mind…..
http://www.healthandfitnessadvice.com/the-healthy-skeptic/the-health-skeptic-an-update-on-whole-body-vibration-training.html
In this review he clearly states Vibration Training may be as good as resistance training , using a weighted vest , plyometrics or taking stimulants .
His ONLY objection now is the price.
That’s a big shift from…
It cant work for anyone because its based on flawed science.
It’s hardly a change of mind. He’s saying WBV may be able to elicit some training responses and even that’s a stretch – but the same responses can be gained other ways.
He simply will not back down until the evidence hits him right in the face…and it will when his clients leave to train with other trainers who recognise the rapid benefits in short time that using Vibration Training gives, plus it’s use in therapy. Getting players back into top form in shortest time.. oops I’m sounding like an advertisement.
His ONLY objection now is the price.
What the….??
A personal trainer is at least $40 a session plus gym membership cost, vibration training is $10 at most places with a trainer for free, this guy is losing his argument fast.
Talk about having egg on your face….
To put Sals new opinion in perspective , here are a few quotes from his past articles….
“WBV shouldn’t be taken seriously.”
“WBV does nothing to improve muscle tone and balance”
“it doesn’t matter what company makes this type of machine, as they are all junk.”
“in an effort to clarify, I think wbv is garbage. the different machines are just different brands of garbage.”
” the fantasy of WBV.”
“WBV is useless “
Sal has shown up at that article in the comments below.
A recent publicated Swedish study shows that exposure to vibration is a risk factor for myocardial infarction.
Take a look at: http://www.diva-portal.org/umu/abstract.xsql?dbid=1903
Erik, Have you read any of this site? have you even seen a Vibration Training/Therapy Machine?
The study you’ve linked is about exposure thru hand/arm to heavy work related vibration such as earth moving or compacting machinery.
This site is about Controlled Whole Body Vibration via a designed Vibration Machine – Very Different!
Di,
Please do not just read the abstract, read the whole article and then make your comment.
Eric….
(1) We warn against deliberate over exposure ( re occupational ) to vibration on this site all the time. The risks are well known and 50+ yrs of ISO 2631 guidelines already address most issues.
We were the first hard core proponents of restricted use of Vibration for Training purposes.
Note: No increase in actual death by myocardial infarction within the occupation of engineering or jewelers as opposed to average populations has ever been recorded in N.Z. Australia. U.K. or U.S.
Armed Forces records in the U.S. and Australia ( where over-expose in tanks and helicopters etc.. is common ) also show no increased incidences.
Disclaimer: I can only comment on records I had access to .
(2) Vibration Training increases heart rate and blood oxygen levels simultaneously so may skew results for heart-rate activity and individuals may have different reactions.
Note: I have seen athletes get off breathing heavily but have had asthma sufferers claim they breath easier for days after training.
I agree this needs to be studied more .
(3) All workouts are a risk factor for myocardial infarction by proxy. But the benefits outweighing the risks has never seen health professional recommend stopping these activities and they never will.
EG. In the morbidly obese all exercise is a risk factor but if they don’t exercise they will die. Damned if you do , damned if you don’t
Final note…..
All activities have inherent risks attached , studies into Vibration Training by academics would be taken more seriously and be useful to the industry if they understood this compromise and worked within the mindset of how to make people “safer” not “safe”.
Erik, I’m going to let others more knowledgable answer you but I will briefly reply:
The conclusions points of that study are so vast that immediate directives and probably regulation would be taken to restrict all vibration related activities if they were true.
The Study involves primarily work related stressors of hand arm vibration and wbv, dust and noise over time periods very much longer than the short bursts of controlled wbv (30 sec-120 sec x 6-10) that users of Vibration machines deliberately expose themselves to. The allostatic load differs enormously. The neural and neuroendocrine stress response differs enormously. The opposite effects occur – stress hormones are reduced. The mind knows that the vibration stress is temporary and can be stopped at any time. Yes, the body responds to the stress imposed just as it does to conventional resistance exercise, but you are missing the point, it is – Controlled which is not the same using as Industrial Vibration day after day as an occupation.
I have risk factors for CVD and MI. I use WBV as part of a lifestyle change to reduce these factors and it works! I’ve even used a Vibration Training Platform while wearing a ambulatory blood pressure monitor and I’m sure my Cardiologist would have complained if the recording showed me to be in any way unsafe.
Erik, I’d appreciate it if you tell us more of your background and why you are concerned about wbv.
Di, & Lloyd
My first reaction to the headlines was similiar to yours Di. You see, I´m involved in this business as much as you are. Together with my partners I am running a rehab center just outside Stockholm, Sweden.
As a practitioner in manual medicine I have been working with WBV since 2001, started with NEMES and now, after testing a numerous of machines through the years(Never completely satisfied with the specs of the machines dominating the EU market),i am now building my own, Swedish made, all steel commercial devices.
The exposure, amplitude and accelerations parameters used in the study (10 hz and 5 m/s2) was not in line with the modern lineal WBV units used today. But we can easily see that vibration is a powerful thing that has to be used carefully and with knowledge.
Sorry to say, even from manufacturers side today there is sometimes very little knowledge about possible risks with over exposure and using frequencies causing a resonance in internal organs.
I believe it is important to discuss benefits as well as possible risk factors related to vibration training and I hope we are prepared to share information related to this issue. For that reason, I believe, it was important for participants of this forum to take a look at this article.
(Sorry for the one non English website. Maybe the automatic translation program will make some understanding)
Erik..
I thought you had been on here before, maybe using your full name would be helpful so we know you are not a consumer or inexperienced academic.
Nice to hear someone coming into the commercial market , Europe needs it badly.
lloyd,
Yes, Europe needs it, that´s right But just selling the machines is not good enough. There is a lot of high quality WBV-training devices out there that isn´t used properly or not used at all because the consumer who bought them doesnt understand the concept.
Like Vibra-Train we are not selling to the average consumer. To be able to make full benefits out of our machines we believe in education as the most important matter.
So, as customers we are welcome all therapists and practisioners who we believe has the background to assimilate our collected knowledge. WBV therapy and training deserve to be treated with respect. Properly used it can really help people who suffers from a wide range of symptoms and then make them stay healthy.
A question to you Di & Lloyd.
- Why, do you think, has vibrationtraing become such a big sucess as it seems to have been in NZ?
A number of things…
(a) Rules and regulations around the use of the product were put in place from day one with me going one step further and putting it into legally binding contracts.
Hint: NO is the most powerful word you can have in your business vocabulary .
(b) The prices were set in stone and based on the average worker being able to afford it 3 times a week as recommended.
(c) Most important: True commercial products with workout capabilities to back up the hype.
Essentially we have spent 3 yrs building up the foundation and benchmark of an industry instead of just marketing the theory and potential .
Some of the above might now be hard to implement in Europe due to Power Plate “selling out” the industry so early on and setting the standard so low. Even though some “marketing types” did follow suit here in N.Z. their failure in the commercial market means no-one takes them seriously.
Lloyd, now I understand why you sometimes copy into here the posts you put on other forums. I spent a long time writing a reply on Sal Marinello’s Healthy Skeptic Forum. My post was live for an hour and has now been removed along with some of the others. Sports and Fitness Trainers who continually refute the fact that Controlled Whole Body Vibration gives amazing results will one day pay a high price for their blatent misleading of those who pay them for accurate advice!
Wow, I complained about my post being deleted and I got a reply and am able to re-post a comment on the article so regardless of why it was removed (It was not rude nor insulting) it’s good to see that freedom of speech is allowed.
http://www.healthandfitnessadvice.com/the-healthy-skeptic/the-health-skeptic-an-update-on-whole-body-vibration-training.html
He deleted mine as well. Who did you complain to ?
I reposted something similar …..
Could someone please explain why my last post was deleted and could it be put back up ?
Sal has made numerous public statements stating clearly everyone is being dishonest in regards to Vibration Training and it cant do “anything” and it is “useless”.
To back up his agenda he mislead his readers with nonfactual/unscientific statements of his own. I want to know why he thought it was ethical to do this.
Sal , once again why did you tell your readers that Vibration Training platforms give you electric shocks ?
In a recent survey of 800 Australian medical specialists 12.3% admit that the “papers” they published were just rewrites of drafts given to them by companies trying to sell a product.
5.1% admit to deliberatly not releasing studies that showed negative results.
Note: These are just the ones who were honest , the really dishonest ones wouldnt have admited anything.
The report found that gifts , research money or honoaria ( gifted academic titles ) were standard “bribes” taken .
I will post this because Sal will delete it from his forum , where he still refuses to answer questions about his past statements , including deleting entire posts pointing out his dishonesty….
He just did an article on Body Vibe here…….
http://www.healthandfitnessadvice.com/the-healthy-skeptic/more-whole-body-vibration-shenanigans.html
My response……
Firstly even the dodgy companies usually only say that Vibration Training is “as good as ” other forms of exercise but is just faster. And studies are slowly proving it is indeed a valid form of resistance training.
YOU have only started using the claim “better than real exercise” to cover up your deliberate attempt to mislead readers in the past were you stated it was……..
“useless and did nothing”.
In the future this lie will be exposed more and more.
In regards to Body Vibe International , on another forum Sal reads and has contributed to I stated in 2007…
vibrationtraining.net
Lloyd Shaw
June 28th, 2007
“The information on its website in places is very misleading and as a result I would be concerned at other statements or promises made by this company. In my experience this is usually not a good sign of things to come and would indicate marketers are in charge of their science department.”
On the same site in 2007 we discussed their vibraceuticals, range and debunked it.
And now you pretend to review the company and topic to appear valid and up to date ? ( and no I don’t believe its a happy coincidence )
You are a lazy fraud Sal , plain and simple.
Seems harsh folks…?
Consider this was the guy who….
(a) Told people Vibration Plates give you electric shocks. A clear lie anyone can disprove. He tried to get around this by telling people to not even trial the technology for free.
(b) Wrote multiple reviews on a product he never even tried until we gave him so much flak he went and got the cheapest unit he could find , which was basically a step pad with a vibrator attached to it , against our advice.
A pathetic attempt to back up his own point of view.
It seems if we are not fighting dodgy marketers we are fighting dodgy critics.
Someone please put up these points on BlogCritics, in your own words….. http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/09/18/183120.php
You say “I have no way of knowing the accuracy or veracity of Sal’s opinions, but then nor does Lloyd or you, so you might want to knock it off with the accusations.”
Sal has used these series of blogs to tell the readers such things as Vibration Platforms work by giving you electric shocks so don’t try them. Lloyd tried to point out that was unethical and should not be allowed. As it is not an opinion but a blatant lie and a scare tactic.
One of the site owners tried to support Sals agenda , Lloyd thinks that is unethical as well so called him on it, and you too.
It is easy to prove to you that the accusation we give is not an opinion but scientific fact. Something Sal is keen on himself, proven facts!!
If we manage to do that will you start questioning Sals honesty and motives as you seem to question Lloyds?
Because that is what this is about, has Sal been deliberately dishonest in his work to push an agenda. His whole series is really about honesty. If the answer is yes he has lied it should be addresses and not hidden from the reader. He should be outed and not defended.
Will you publish the proof Sal lied if it comes from a reputable scientific source ?
To clarify this was Sal Marinellos opening statement on Vibration Training platforms….
” this is nothing more than a bigger version of the electronic stim pads that were advertised as being able to develop muscles depending on where you connected the pads, especially in the abdominal region, these devices were discredited years ago.”
Clearly showing he had done ZERO research on the subject and is highly uneducated. Which is why he has to lie in his articles. I really think this is low considering all his articles , even about other topics are always to do with honesty and integrity.
It would seem that Admin from BlogsCritics are quietly deleting Sals obvious lies off their site to try and make it appear it never happened , but not to worry I have it printed off to prove they were published.
I put up a post on blogcritics. This Sal must have never read the research literature or else he can’t comprehend it?
It would appear Sal is really out to make a mark for himself. As the SLOWEST DUMBEST TRAINER IN THE WORLD. Oh , not to forget LAZY as well.
Not only is he down to writing articles that are based on research on years old research, but he knows fully well the machines used in that very research were therapy models that failed engineering tests here in N.Z. The researchers didn’t even know to look for in a unit so they got easily duped. All those machines are now broken, I know he knows this because I sent him the tests results and an update on the situation 2 years ago and he replied with a thankyou.
So he either cant read and he didnt want to admit it, or he is being dishonest AGAIN.
My guess is a bit of both. Either way I am going to take great pleasure in hanging him up as the poster boy for , thick as a plank , stuck in last century , typical American jock . Happily digging himself a deeper hole every time he tries to justify his previous articles.
But that’s what happens when some who’s ego is bigger than his IQ is allowed to publish stuff I suppose.
I must admit it is frustrating though , kinda like watching a monkey slowly figure out how to do something simple , like open a jar of peanuts. You want to “help” him think , but you cant.
A few points to be thrown in Sals direction ……
(1) Sal loves Kettle-Bells.
Imagine how frustrated would have felt if a marketing campaign was released right when their potential was being realized ( no decent tests done yet because they were brand new ) by a company that made them out of plastic , with fancy programs attached, but obviously no chance of ever working to someone who understands that without “mass” they are useless.
And on top of that Academics were dumb enough to test them , because they “look” like the real thing.
(2) Price of equipment…?
Using that argument we would not have commercial gyms. They spend thousands on equipment for the consumer to use they could otherwise never afford. And we all know most of the actions that equipment replicates could be done cheaper with free weights , your own body weight , a medicine ball or sometimes just leaning against a wall .
Are you really suggesting that is what we go back to ?
If so it would appear the joke about you being a caveman running around with rocks is not far off the truth.
(3) In N.Z. we don’t charge athletes to use the equipment. It costs them nothing. So your “its too expensive ” argument falls flat. Eg. The N.Z. basketball team the Breakers have requested a unit and will get one free next week. It was not offered as some cheap marketing ploy, they asked, and they still get it for free.
It is not our fault Sal you live in a country where everybody is so greedy they would do nothing for free. Greed at all costs right ?
It is important to point out , it was an AMERICAN marketing company who sold out our industry and went so far as to try and rip off disabled people . So maybe having a closer look at why your system finds that acceptable , and is even promoted by great American fitness companies like AP and CP would be a better use of your time.
Seeing as I am banned could you guys go on and post a protest in regards to this latest from admin…..
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/09/18/183120.php
“he not only challenged Sal’s opinion but also got personal about it – repeatedly. It was that which got him banned”
But Sal has openly called me a scam artist, basically dishonest and only out to steal peoples money, a direct attack on me personally that deeply offended me.
Others have been called liars, simple , stupid, hucksters and other names. All personal attacks on their character , not simply opionions. In fact anyone who questions Sals point of view is attacked and gets called something disrespectful.
Admin is meant to be unbiased and balanced. Not support or promote abuse by its staff.
Thanks Bryant, but dont try to market your product in statements on that site. It gives them perfect ammo to claim you are only concerned about sales.
Hell I dont market and I get accused of it.
I am not in the habit of repeating posts I put on the BlogCritic website but mine are now being removed, I will re-post here. Commenting on Sal’s article “Speed Not Enhanced by Whole Body Vibration Training” I wrote:
The above article correctly points out these problems with Studies of Whole Body Vibration:
small sample size, questionable methodology, lack of long-term studies, prominence of studies featuring untrained subjects and the lack of a standard WBV training protocol
which is exactly why those who are serious about the industry have been, and are, working on standards for vibration machine quality; also a standard training protocol of excellent instruction using a specific safety-first program adhered to by all.
Sal’s article on the studies is negative and couldn’t be otherwise due to the flaws stated. It’s the disparaging comments against those who are providing a safe, effective training/fitness method that cuts. “WBV Hucksters” he calls us for providing an inexpensive (Sal really needs to research this) option which can work alone or alongside gym and personal training.
Results? I have not seen or heard of one person who has not gained results from training on a high quality platform with the safety-first, whole body program 10 minutes, 2-3x week. People return to Studios after taking a break (travel, work etc) because, alike with regular training, they become deconditioned. [end quote]
I am offended by his tirade and continual slurs and suggestions of WBV being just a money-making scam. I consider myself fully involved in this industry and, to date, I’ve received no money. Obviously people working daily in the industry have to be paid but I’ve yet to see any owner or manufacturer become rich. That will happen (and fair enough too) with business success but for now, altruism is what I’m seeing.