Vibra-Train have released the safety program to be used with their machines. It provides an interesting example of what a WBV training program might look like.
The basic rules:
- Always check your position before starting.
- Re-check your position every 20 seconds.
- Do not move.
- Stay relaxed.
- If you do find yourself out of position you have only 2 options
- Get off
- Correct immediately
The exercises covered in the program include; Basic Squat, Push-up, Wide Stance Squat, Tricep Dip, Pelvic Stability, Stretch, Lunge, Anti-Cellulite, Superman Squat.
See the full description of exercises or pictures.
Machine settings are:
(a) Lineal Vibration Training (not 3D or Pivotal)
(b) Amplitude – 3MM
(c) Speed – 43Hz
Editor’s Note: Anti-Cellulite? Is there any proof that sitting on a WBV machine for 3 minutes could have any possible action in lowering cellulite. Arguably it could allow more blood flow to the region allowing the adipose tissue to be accessed – but in that case would other forms of resistance training also have that effect?
Disclosure: This blog (vibrationtraining.net) is neither owned nor managed by Vibra-Train – nor is there any commercial affiliation between the two. The owner of Vibra-Train kindly submits articles about Whole Body Vibration so that all interested parties can better understand this area. The above post is provided to help readers get a sample of what a WBV training program looks like. In no way do the owners of the Vibration Training blog either endorse or recommend any specific WBV device over another. It is up to the reader to judge for themselves. Any other article submissions are welcome.
{ 108 comments… read them below or add one }
I have only covered the first 9 poses in our program . Please read the instructions carefully and do in the exact order given.
These poses should be applicable to most units being sold at present. But results may vary in accordance with the quality of your machine.
My advice would be to print out these pages , put them up in your workout area. And read each time you train.
Do not exceed 15mins of static poses every second day.
THE BULLET – is a Negative Response Platform ( just standard vibrating plate )
I have used this as my example as most plates you can purchase will be similar in design. ( mine are not for sale to the public ).
Other units I build are much larger and are more suitable for people with disabilities or looking for athletic performance.
I hope this helps with those of you struggling to find a nice basic workout that covers all the major bases in a safe manner.
Any questions welcome.
Hi Everyone, I would like to share with you all something I experienced today.
As some already know I work in the industry and I believe it’s in my best interests as well as our clients to be as well informed on other products as possible.
For this reason I visited another studio today (no names) And put my body on the line in the name of research-which I’ve later come to regret.
The studio I visited today did NOT put me through a “safe” programme like the one above , The trainer there didn’t like to stick to any specific order as it bored him!
I was placed into some pretty “funky” positions, some I wouldn’t dream of putting my own clients in.
One example…. I was put into a pelvic bridge with my feet on the machine, my elbows on a block out in front. This sent the vibrations into my knees and killed my back!! I have had a headache and felt ill most of the afternoon, the lower back wasn’t too sharp either (good thing I’m young and strong).
As stated above in the “Vibra-Train Safety-First workout” there is no room for variation. Positions are put there and in that particular for a reason.
When sticking to Lloyds safe proven workouts our trainers are seeing great results in our clients and therefore get a buzz out of what we do and keeps the job interesting. In this case SIMPLE is SAFE!!!!
Thanks Lloyd, Keep up the awesome work!
Thanks Lloyd,
The excercises are very clear and instructive. Now I am armed with a few to try out at a suitable venue.
Keep up the good work
Hallo Lloyd. Great Job !
What is the difference between the Bullet and Standard workout ?
Just finished the 9 poses. Very demanding! Outstanding Lloyd, thanks.
Do you ever increase the 43 Hz range or the seconds?
Jason….
The first 9 poses are identical in all my programs. No matter what unit you are using. They only vary from there depending on your machine type.
The Bullet does not have vibrating handle bars so only negative responses can be caused.
Dan V……
For the standard user , changes are seldom made. The biggy is managing the 2 minite super-squat at the end. We still have people after 18months trying to conquer that program.
If you read the poster it says ” further poses can be added if above poses can be held with no concerns ”
Remember that program is attached to my machine range that has been designed for 95% of the population. Not the “weekend warrior” athlete.
I have 5 models. 2 are sports units.
Dan V….
to further touch on increasing the intensity of your program. And for everybody who has a decent home unit.
The rules are:
(a) Holding a stricter pose is the answer to making it harder. Remember “where” and “how” the pressure/weight is applied makes all the difference.
(b) 43hz-45hz is a good start setting.
Dropping it DOWN in speed will make it more intense. ( but never below 38hz )
(c) Holding any pose for 2 mins straight should be your max.
Do not underestimate what you are actually asking your body to do during just 10mins on the plate.
Think about this…
Most home units can apply 3 x gravity ( 3g ).
At 40hz thats 2400 movements per min , at 3 times your own mass.
Thats 24,000 sets.
Just because its over quickly , or you think you could do more , dont. Be smart and walk away.
Lloyd, The last 45 seconds in the super-squat pose felt like the tail end of a twenty rep weighted squat.
One more question for now, if you don’t mind.
My home unit has a high and low amplitude setting. On the specifications, it indicates: Amplitude – 3-5mm.
I am assuming Low amplitude is 3mm, and High amplitude is 5mm. What setting would you advise?
Thank you
3mm should be sufficiant for most exercises.
The 5mm / 40hz should be used as a ” Peak ” to your program.
Try 1 x 2min squat + 1 x 2min pushup after completion of standard. It will blow you out without over extending your time.
Dan V.-
Question, what unit are you working with?
Thanks
KG
PS-thanks Lloyd. Good stuff. Shocking how trainers I’ve used are so CLUELESS in regards to this.
KG
Hypergravity
Thanks Lloyd, I appreciate all the knowledge you share.
Great information Lloyd…With this program is there any need for additional conventional weight training? Also, if one wants to do resistance training alongwith this program can it be done the same day or after a 48 hr gap?
Same day is best. Remember Vibration Training is a form of resistance training. So try to stick to the same guidelines.
Exept you do NOT break up your body as per a normal resistance program. I know it’s a pain but your whole body must be done. Then rest day.
I will put up my recommended Weight + VT program tomorrow on this site.
Sorry bit shagged at moment , just done 2 day expo.
Dan V,
Are you using the Hypergravity personal unit or the larger Olympic Pro version? If you are using the smaller personal unit do you feel that you can use all of the positions listed by Lloyd? I was looking into the Olympic Pro model but it appears too wide and deep to get through my doorway openings.
Thanks
Kris,
I have the Hypergravity Personal Model. I am unable to perform the lunge for obvious reasons,the platform is not big enough. On the Super-squat position, I face the control panel. If I face away, as indicated, the small of my back comes in contact with the panel. Also, the wide squat position, not enough panel.
All others are no problem.
Great unit, great company to deal with!
This was my program when I was doing both Weight + VT ( On a Vibro-Gym back then ). I only used Machines in my weight training program.
I found it very effective for gaining mass and strength. I went from 78Kg to 82Kg in a matter of months. But my Body-Fat% stayed at about 16%.
I did a basic 3 position warm-up on the the VT machine before starting my weights. I found this cut down on workout time dramatically with it allowing me to drop off my normal ” light weights ” warm-up sets.
Warm-up…
(1) 1 min basic Squat
(2) 1 min push-up
(3) 1 min pelvic stability.
(4) 1 min Stretch
Weight machines…. All straight to heavy. ( fail equaled 6-10 reps )
(1) Fly machine…. 6 sets to fail , increasing weights ( dropping a pin each set = up weight )
(2) Hack Squat ( aka do not bend knee more than 90 degrees ) …. Squat machines 6 sets till fail taking up weight each set.
(3) Bench Press Machine… 6 sets till fail , up weight each set.
Then straight back to my studio ( next to gym luckily ) and into my standard workout I recently posted.
Note: When going back to just VT on the newly developed units. I dropped down to 79-80Kg but keep on 11% body-fat with little effort.
I suppose depending on your body type this may be a trade off.
Hello Lloyd
I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I am sorry, but I am still confused. Is it even possible to find a home unit that can give decent results? I already do weights and treadmill or eliptical 6 days a week and am at a good weight for my 5′ 3″ frame.
I tried a power plate at a vancouver health show and it made my teeth rattle, my ears buzz and gave me an instant headache.
I am more interested in fatloss and muscle building.
Thanks for your help. I have read through your entire web site and I feel very confident in your knowledge and experience. I only wish you were opening studios here, although I love my own home gym.
Gail
We will be opening in Canada.
The Hypergravity personal is the only unit in your area that will give good consistant results.
Or try Wavexercise. Their home unit should be released soon.
Thanks Lloyd. If money is not a problem, would you choose the Elite pro or the Olympic Pro from Hyperactivity? Or is the personal unit able to perform just as well?
I have been able to locate the Wave in Canada so far. Is it equal to the Hyperactivity machine?
Can the vibration of the machine harm the floor it is setting on like if it’s a hardwood floor, can it vibrate it apart? Shows how much I don’t know about WBV.
Where will you be starting out in Canada? I am in the west and most companies seem to be drawn to Toronto in the East. There are alot more people in that area.
Thanks for your time. I know you must be extremely busy.
Gail
Gail Walter
The Elite Professional has Exactly the same machine with the Olypmic Professional.
The Elite Professional is able for more frequency settings (1Hz step)and the Olympic Professional has less frequency settings (5Hz) step .
Gail Walter…
The Elite Pro does appair to have a wider choice of Fq. So would be the best buy.
The machine should not effect a hardwood floor. If you have a concern though you could always purchase a set of rubber mats ( best type are made of used car tyres ) for putting under the machine. It will also help stop the unit from “walking”.
I have not managed to get confirmation yet from Wavexercise as to certain aspects of their home unit. So will get back to you on that one.
We have about 5 areas in Canada looking to go , but God knows when. People getting finance etc…
Im in no hurry myself.
Lloyd,
Would it be possible for you to show us a picture of your models that have the side handles/rails. Can the same positions that you have posted for the “bullet” model be used with the side rails? For instance, the basic squat? Or do you use those side rail models only for upper torso toning?
Follow the link to see both styles .
http://www.vibra-train.co.nz/machines.html
To answer your question. Our standard program can be done completely on all our units. Hand-bars if placed properly should give you MORE options.
Mr. Lloyd
i really admire your passion for this area of training and i think most of the readers and posters here have a bit of this passion too.
The basic program you propose can be applied only on your machines and only on lineal machines?
Excuse my English and thank you for your time and space.
My basic program should be able to be done on any Lineal unit available for purchase .
Only the results will vary.
Gail,
Be careful with how much padding you add. Any pad between the floor and the platform dampens the vibration. I.e. there will be less vibration transmitted to the body. Depending on the padding used, this effect could go from imperceptible to substantial. So pay attention.
Unfortunately there is no way around it, it’s a law of physics. What happens is that an extra padding allows the platform feet to go up and down at the same frequency, but in opposite direction from the top plate. The more this happens the less vibration the platform will transmit to the body.
The power plate is 3 dimmensial if standing on 1 part of the base it may not be moving the same as another part IE dizziness try the vibro gym which is Keama cetified meaning it can be used by disabled It is all steel contruction not plastic.
You can aslo research http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov on vertical vibration study after study will show the benefits
Do not by a cheap unit they may cause more damage then good.
If you’re in north america visit http://www.tbtvibrogym.com
Lloyd Shaw
I have a Vibrogym Pro model which I am now hoping to train clients on in my house. It is standing on a carpet which I was told does not affect the vibrations. However, would it be better for me to put floor boards down instead?
The fears re overtraining concern me too – I read that 20 mins 5 times a week could cause anything up to organ failure! Should I warn all clients of this before using it – I fear it will scare them off!
Final query: I may have a client who has mild MS. Is there any particular pointers you have with regards her using it? There seems to be a lack of info on its usage with regards certain medical conditions or rehab, so I’m assuming I just go ahead as usual…
I’m really pleased with this model – it may not be as glamorous as the Powerplate’s NG model, but it doesn’t seem to have the controversy surrounding it either
Jane
I run a very successful studio with 2 vibrogym professionals. We are upstairs on wooden floors which is not ideal, so we have put spa pool cover under our machines which works well. You should put an xtra piece of carpet under them to protect your floor.
As far as training is concerned we only allow clients on the machine every other day, one on one training and do not deviate from the standard programe that Lloyd Shaw recomends. Because we are upstairs with a shop under us we run the machines on 40 hz high except for the basic stretch which is 40 hz low.
Your MS client will be fine with Lloyds basic programe on 40 hz low may be 2 times a week depending on energy levels. If they can cope ok 3 times a week every other day should be achieved after a month or so. Make sure they have eaten properly before working out. We have a couple of MS clients that have found good results with these machines.
Hope this helps
Mike
Yes it may not look as sexy , but the Vibro-Gym Pro passed all the engineering tests PowerPlate failed. So good choice.
The carpet will not effect the unit. Buy make sure the isolators ( those diamond shaped rubber mounts un derneath ) are changed if they get hard. The machine will start to walk when this happens.
Now about the warning re overuse. Just tell them you have restrictions around your machines which include limited exposure , no exceptions as it has been recommended by others in the field you trust. You dont have to tell them why. If anyone really wants more info you can get them to read this site.
The M.S. customer does the same program as everyone else. Depending on the extent of the problem they may not be able to do a full workout. In that case scale it back to 2mm/40hz and stick to the very basics.
Thank you for the advice – very much appreciated, as I struggle to understand the whole thing!
Two further queries:
1) I’ve been recommending that people use my Vibrogym 3 times per week. However, realistically people can not afford to book 3 sessions a week with me in my home so over what period of time might clients expect to see results if they only use the machine once, or twice a week? They advertise that 3 x per week will show results within 12 weeks.
2) I gather Pivotal machines are better at the lower frequencies (30hz) than Linear (which are better above 38hz). If this is the case, how come Pivotal machines can cause shearing to joints over time?) It would seem that if this is the case, Linear would be better in all respects. If it is the case, then I’m not understanding where Pivotal machines have their niche alongside Linear? I’m told Linear can act as a Pivotal anyway but not the other way round.
I guess I’m comparing (as examples):
Pivotal – Galileo (thought Powerplate too, but now am told Powerplate is actually Linear as is my Vibrogym.
Trice a week and they should also see results in the same time. 3 times a week is a maximum not a minimum.
Pivotal in my opinion should never be used without supervision. But a purpose built unit can be very effective in targeting just rebalancing responses.
Which would be good for athletes and Physio work.
I am not sure if this is the proper section for this-admin, please section correctly if not. This one goes to Lloyd, David and all other frequent posters for comment.
I took a copy to my gym of Lloyd’s sanctioned training positions and protocols to show the “trainers”.
The main reason for this post is to see if some guidelines can be placed on here (with disclaimers of caution etc.) regarding the use of dynamic/moving exercise on a linear platform.
Recently Lloyd stated that for performance athletes such movements are very relevant prior to competition-build up etc.
It would be ideal to post the particulars (ideal time befor an event when such a program would be relevant and again disclaimers regarding it’s use).
Why?
Just look around at studios and websites(I will provide links later)!
“Trainers” (and I use this term loosely….universally have their charges doing dynamic movements right off the bat. This knowledge of who should be performing such movements and the timeline involved should be presented on-line as an education.
When I brought to the attention of the gym I frequent Lloyd’s static position guide-they changed their program. However for the athletically inclined performance sort their is still this bias that static positions are ideal for build-up of a program and then moving on to dynamic movements.
This information could serve to save a lot of folks out there the possibility of injury or less than optimal training regarding their sport or competition.
KG
Slow Dynamic or full Plyometric movements should be ADDED to the end of a static workout in the last 3 weeks of an 8 week program. Untill then the static workout should be taken to its most exact level.
Note: One does not replace the other.
Remember this is on top of other training programs that would usually involve full range of movement in other forms of exercise.
For safety reasons dynamic should only be done at the moment by athletes under supervision. Untill there is better base education I believe the risks outweight the benifits for any other groups to be involved in ths activity.
Should I release a dynamic program to the public now I am certain it would be misused immediately and I dont want to be responsable for that.
My aim in the future is to have purpose built studios for this kind of activity with instructors who understand the nature of dynamic movement coupled with Vibration Training.
The risks and the benifits.
I just want to thank everyone for their comments about Vibration Training, especially Lloyds…because reading the comments, I have been able to pick the best machine for my family.
I just have one question, because I am somewhat confused. Can I place the machine in a room with padded carpeting, or should I place it in a second story room with wood floors?
Any input is greatly appreciated!
Kim
Hi kim, what machine have you got?
If it is as powerful as the vibrogym or hypergravity I would suggest ground floor with carpet, you should also put some old carpet or rubber mats under the feet of the machine to stop it from walking accross the floor and wearing out your carpet.
I have my machines upstairs on wooden floors with rubber mats and a spa pool cover under them to dampen the vibrations but downstairs still hear them. Hope this helps
Mike
Mike,
Thanks for the input…I am plan on purchasing the hypergravity personal machine. I have a third floor that is carpeted with padding, and I was planning on putting the machine there. but if the wood floor is better, I can place it in a bedroom.
The other option would be in the garage, on a cement floor. I am not sure if the humidity could affect the life/performance of the machine.
I was just unclear if the different types of floors could affect the vibrations, i am just trying to figure things out!
Kim
I have had a body Pulse Machine at home before on a wooden floor and the house is slightly raised.
It shaked the whole house around!
And the Body Pulse machine has such a low level of vibrations I dont think the Hypergravity would go too good upstairs.
But You can only try. It wont make the machine work less effectively but it might make the house feel like itrs coming apart. Of course this depends on how think the concrete is between each floor.
I wouldnt recommend walking a machine up stairs more than once though as they are heavy as hell
Do you think the unairconditioned garage outsde is a bad idea???? I am in Houston, Texas with high heat and high humidity….
Kim
The mainly analogue system on the hypergravity will be fine with humidity. I would actually be more worried about the dust in a garage kicked up by the unit which could be fixed by a plastic bag covering the control panel and rubber band around the bottom, if it is of real concern.
Prevention …cure..etc..
But the garage does sound the better opition all up.
Thanks Lloyd, I think the garage does sounds like the right choice! I will just have to keep the garage extra clean, and in mid-August be ready to train in a “sauna”.
Kim
Kim
I’m with Lloyd on this one, if we had a choice ground floor on concrete would be it.
PS…..
throw away the excercise chart that comes with the machine and follow Lloyds safety programe..
After reading all of the comments, I did not even consider keeping the chart it comes with. I am convinced that I must workout with Lloyds safety programe!
This has been the biggest education curve that I have had in a very long time. I only know ONE person who has ever tried WBV, or even has heard of it! I have tried explaining the concept to lots of my friends, even my husbsnd, and they think I am nuts!
Therefore this website has been a wealth of information and resource for my WBV questions…..
Kim
I was just asked by a club in the U.K. if my standard program was in that order for a reason….
Yes the order is very important..
(1) Safety , if a person has trouble with the basic squat it can be spotted by the trainer on the first pose , and accounted for.
(2) Working back and forward between arms and legs allows for fatigue but not stress or injury , it also creates a better flow of lymphatic fluid.
(3) The core is brought to attention at pose 5 to allow for the slower warm-up time of these muscle groups ( the first 4 poses do engage the core to some degree.)
(4) Then a stretch is done to relieve pressure on the lumbar.
(5) The basic squat is always done last as this has total whole body rebalancing effects that use more muscle groups than is obvious.
The order is actually a “filter” where problems can be picked up by a trainer . The client can then be re-directed to less risky poses.
Hey Lloyd,
I want to thank you for your training programs and safety first strategies.
I am using them successfully with a pivotal system that I love.
My question is for people just getting started and perhaps out of shape, do you have any special guidance to get them started with your bullet training program on a pivotal system?
thanks
bryant
p.s. i can attest that your training works for pivotal systems as I have been doing it for about 3 months now with fantastic results (20-24hz)/13mm amplitude (min to max)…
Lloyd
This may be a question like ‘how long is a piece of string’ but…
A friend of mine has moderate osteoporosis (she is in her late 50s). She needs to know: How many weeks of 3 per week would she need to use the VibroGym for her to improve her bone density – and how long would the effects last? She obviously can’t afford to pay indefinately for sessions, and she can’t afford to buy a machine either.
Thanks
Anything is better than nothing….
But under 6 months would be a waste of time , and the effects stop the day you stop. It is not a cure , it is only a treatment.
Thank you.
You mention a safety programme which you have developed. How can I see this?
Also, on another chat site, I read some comments about the straps being of no added benefit other than your own muscles pulling on them (due to vibrations not travelling up material). How true is this? I thought the material used had been researched thoroughly so that the vibrations COULD travel through properly (as long as straps at full tension).
Good question, Jane. After all, straps are provided with every machine I have seen.
Jane
click on Lloyds name to go to his web site and view safety programs.
The use of Straps??? There are same good marketers out there.
Oh and by the way I have a red Porsche 4 sale if you are interested
To see program…
http://www.vibra-train.com/exercises-bullet.html
Instructions….
http://www.vibra-train.com/exercises-explained.html
About the straps…
They will have “some” added benifit but are basically useless compared to direct transmission methods. The way you have to use them also goes against the relax state the muscle needs to be in for a complete stretch reflex to take place.
Why everyone has them…..very cheap to make.
Waiting for a company to make a biceps/latissimus rail on a quality machine sold to the public. I haven´t seen one so far. Any chances you could develop one with a good company, Lloyd?
I developed the first handle bar system in 2005 , but even when I did I knew it was not going to be appreciated and stopped releasing other technology. I had just found out how many problems the leaders in the industry were having just building machines that didnt break and actually did their job.
Note: Only 2 retail companies out of the entire industry are only now building bigger platforms for gyms.
It is only a matter of time before what we prove on the studio floor will be taylored and sold to the public.
If I ever get to go to New Zeeland again, I will be very interested in trying your machines. Until then or until there is a handle bar system available on the market, I will have to stick with free weights for biceps. Thanks for taking the time to answer all questions!
I was asked for the best vibration training exercises removing cellulite. What is your experience, Lloyd?
Lloyd:
I know of a unit that offers a home model with a higher amplitude and lower frequency. The frequency ranges from 2.5 – 10.1 HZ. The vendor explains that their system is patented and that they do this intentionally so that their product focuses more on core development, lower back strengthening along with all the other benefits of whole body vibration. The vendor explained that competitors use a very high frequency and low amplitude, which can trigger headaches and cause discomfort.
What do you think of this? Is there a danger in using a lower frequency with a higher amplitude? I’ve used it for three sessions, and felt pretty good (a bit sore) but the last two days, I felt my heart racing later in bed at night. Could be stress, but I wanted your opinion….thanks
To further comment, this unit describes three way vibration, going front to back, side to side and up and down
Please put up a link so we can see the product.
But here are a few points from what you have said so far.
(1) 3D vibration is usually not recommended but might be ok at very low Fq ( 1-3hz ) but I would be very careful as the risks are higher than a lineal system.
Note: Lots of bad quality machines are 3D , its not always deliberate even though this one sounds like it might be.
(2) Everyone says their machines are patented.
(3) The “trigger headaches and cause discomfort” comment is a bit broad , running can also do those things. It sounds like a scare tactic line. If they were really interested in your health they would tell you to try all good quality systems.
If this is a valid form of involuntary reflex training and they seem safety conscience then give it a go . Watch for precise instructions and don’t be afraid to ask questions.
Thanks, Lloyd. I hope to see some of your workout facilities here in North Carolina.
The link is: http://www.lifespanfitness.com/products_VP1000.asp
Hi there,
I’m a massage therapist and just bought a physioplate med to bring myself in shape and of course offer my clients an additional tool for better health. Therefore my goals are mainly therapeutical, not aiming at athletic performance or building hughe muscles (I’d rather refer them to a gym) but helping couchpotatoes move, pain management, incontinence, osteoporosis etc.
After having spent days reading studies and books about wbv and playing with my new tool at 30 hz (sorry Lloyd, after a shocking experience on powerplate I prefer starting with lower freq)there are still more and more questions, especially about frequencies.
I’ve been told that fq > 30 are toning, to build strenght/muscles,while fq < 30 are more for massage, relax, stretching. Now Lloyd starts off at 43 hz saying training would get harder if lowered at max. 38 hz. So what am I mixing up? According to my understanding the higher the fq, the more intense the training because of more movement / stimulus to the muscle per minute.
On the other hand there seems to exist a 20 hz limit for lineal machines, while it’s not a no-no for pivotal ones. The osteoporosis basic program of the Physioplate starts at 22 hz… ??
A study done with Vibrogym on diatetes II patients was done at 30 hz/ 30 sec / 2mm, increased to 35 hz as patients got stronger (i.e. higher fq – intensified program).
Could please somebody expand on frequency and how to apply, as I’m really confused. I can see though, that Lloyds training is really tough – my quads burn after a half squat for one minute – even without vibration – and will do for most people for a long time. But I hesitate to put elderly on such high vib.
Physioplate med: steel, heavy
, 15-70 Hz in 1 Hz steps, amp. 2 and 4 mm, several programs, time and fq may be adjusted during workout. Certified for medical use. (Lloyd: I read you don’t know this machine, it’s very much like vibrogym.)
Thanks!
Kelly…
That machine is purely therapy , not a training model. It will help tone and shorten internal muscles you cant see but not much else.
Samvt…
You really need to call me. What you have asked is way too complicated to write a post on and is the kind of thing that will be covered on the new site.
0064 9 3096874
Kelly,
I am not convinced with VP1000 and the vendor’s claim on the technology of this device. It looks like a cheap OEM China-made gadget to me.
Samvit,
If you are able to speak with Lloyd, I am sure you will learn a lot.
I would like to share my experience with you. I am practicing with FITVIBE EXCEL PRO. I tried PHYSIO PLATE at an exhibition two years ago and I am still keeping communication with GLOBUS. Base on PHYSIO PLATE’s specification, the background of the Italian manufacturer and my brief trial, I think PHYSIO PLATE is one of the decent vibration training devices.
Concerning use of frequency, the majority of this industry has the understanding the frequency of vertical vibration shall keep in range above 20 Hz as safety measure.
In my practice, I use frequency below 30 Hz for relaxation/massage; 30~50 Hz for strengthening; above 50 Hz for superficial stimulation.
Although PHYSIO PLATE’s range starts from 15 Hz, it is still safe depending on how you apply it. As explained, below 30 Hz is mainly for relaxation/massage. If the user is using below 20 Hz for lower limb massage in sitting or lying position, there is no significant vibration energy to transmit to upper body and head, therefore it is still safe even using below 20 Hz. The only question is whether there is a big difference of massaging effect among 15, 20 or 25 Hz.
My criteria in setting up a fitness program are:
- Phase 1) Warm Up (Stretching) – 30 Hz
- Phase 2) Work Out (Strengthening) – 30~45 Hz depending on individual’s capability and objective.
- Phase 3) Relaxation (Cool Down) – 25 Hz
The other parameters like Amplitude and Duration are depending on individual’s capability, preference (especially in relaxation phase) and objective.
TC
Thanks for the advice. Hope to see you in Charlotte, NC soon!
Timothy,
thanks a lot. Things start to clear out a bit and I will stick to these fq-settings to start with. I’m happy you consider Physio Plate decent. After reading all these articles I was a bit concerned having bought the wrong item.
Do you have any idea why fq for osteoporosis range from 17 – 22 depending on workout area? Is this, because people might be frail and still get enough workout with low frequencies and they might be safer not to cause fractures with higher fq?
Lloyd,
I will definitely try to call you. When is it best to call (we have 10-12 hours difference to NZ)?
How about upper body rehab with vibration (shoulder injuries, post operation…)?
Would it make sense to use the strips with higher fq to stimulate and stretch the rotatory muscles?
Before keeping you folks busy with loads of questions:
Is there a good place in Europe to get trained as an instructor?
I’ve just seen that Timothy describes different medical approaches with wbv. This would be my major interest, but HKG is definitely too far away…
I am at the studio till midnight my time, every day.
Samvit,
Some manufacturers like Power Plate, run certificate courses on vibration training. In my opinion, these are mainly marketing gimmicks.
For medical professionals, qualified personal trainers or massage therapists like youself, you folks have already basic knowledge on anatomy and how muscle works. When practicing vibration training, what you lack of are, how it works and how to make use of the parameters to achieve your goal.
These parameters are:
1) Frequency – how rapid you want the target muscle to contract. To apply the theory in designing a treadmill exercise, how fast you want to run.
2) Amplitude – how intensive you want the target muscle to contract each time.
3) Duration – the longer you need to hold a static position, more muscle fibres are recruited to handle the task, more energy to consume.
4) Pose – perform the proper pose depending on the goal and understanding of anatomy.
I would not claim myself as expert, it just happens that I got the opportunity to start learning this training technique earlier than you; and I am still learning everyday.
Believe me, as a massage therapist with basic knowledge of anatomy, you will pick up the skill fast. What you need is to spend more time to train on yourself. You do not need to participate any training course for vibration training.
Regarding vibration training for Osteoporosis, if the case is only in potential risk of Osteoporosis or at very early stage. Vibration training is safe and effective to improve the bone strength. If the case is severe and in great risk of fracture, it is too risky to prescribe vibration training unless it is administrated by medical professionals and with patient’s consent who fully understands the risk.
For specific vibration frequency for Osteoporosis, I am not aware of this existence. Perhaps Lloyd or other masters can comment on it. For me, I would just give 30 Hz and low amplitude.
For shoulder and pectarolis stretch, I can share with you some poses but it is difficult for me to describe the poses in words/writing. Leave me your email address and I can send you some pictures.
TC
This is geared for athletes but what do you think of the ideas expressed by Scott Hopson (Director of Education for Power Plate)about complexing strength training exercises with vibration. For example, using vibration as a neural potentiation prior to strength/power exercises in phases of training geared to power or speed-strength or in hypertrophy phases doing the vibration exercises after the strength training exercises?
John, My personal opinion only with no valid evidence:
For strength/power – why bother using Vibration Training for neural potentiation. Using 50% then maybe 70% 1RM of the exercise or muscle group would be far better = specificity. I guess a light general warm up using Vibration Training would be okay but the danger would be becoming tired or muscles already worked which would counter any productive strength/power workout.
In hypertrophy phases okay you could mix it up and use Vibration Training after workout. I think Lloyd will have a better opinion as he sees people do this. I prefer to keep weights training (which I guess is what is being refered to) and Vibration Training to seperate days but I have personally done a full Vibration Training Training workout after a weights (general fitness/basic strength) program and even later in the day after a full cardio program (which is very hard as one is already fatigued)
In any case I would not use PowerPlate machines if I had a choice and if I did use PowerPlate I would stick to a safety program as Vibra-Train has made available online, not the PowerPlate program.
The recommendations Power Plate give are based on units with very low function. They are certainly not to any athletic level and are far more Therapy based than Training.
Even my different units can not be operated under a blanket rule .
Eg.. my Required Force 2 would not be placed in an athletes program in the same way a Required force 5 would be. And how to use them in an 8 week buildup is vastly different.
I think a couple of you may have misunderstood my question. I’m talking about how to integrate into a periodized program for specific phases where hyperthrophy, power or speed-strength etc. are emphasized. Scott’s advice is very similar to an ex Soviet scientists ideas that I corresponded with several years ago. In hypertrophy or volume phases of strength training he would complex a strength exercise and a vibration exercise (i.e., squats and then squats on a vibration platform). In power phases the opposite would be done. The vibration first as a neural potentiation and then the normal strength training exercise. I realize your equipment is different, but can you give us just a general idea for your level 2 and level 5 Lloyd? It doesn’t have to be in great detail but just a hypothetical example.
This is what I found most effective for long term speed and strength gains mainly tested on Kickboxers to date. I hope to work with sprinters in the future but we lack serious athletes like that in N.Z.
Why Kickboxers ? Their precise body weight parameters , strict diets and buildup to fight dates allow me to gain a more precise overall picture of what’s going on with their bodies and performance.
I also get to interview their trainers and sparing partners which adds another dimension and gives a more level approach than just relying on the actual fight , which has too many variables for my liking.
(1) They use a required force 2 for 60sec each major muscle group before their standard weight training sessions. This allows for a perfect warm up and gives them the immediate positive short term performance effects that are talked about so much.
(2) They then use a required force 5 after their workouts to overload and take their muscles well past a natural fatigue level.
(3) 2 weeks prior to the fight date they enter a special pressure static phase that increases explosive strength well beyond natural ability.
This is done every 3rd day then every second day as a normal build up to a fight date.
On the day of the fight they do a warmup/stretch session and that’s it.
The only problem I have had to date with this program is keeping the muscle gain to a minimum , the muscle is highly functional but can cause issues with weight-in. The athletes are having to work a bit harder than normal to drop it off.
Further to our Ph conversation Samvit , although training our abs are an area of interest for everybody , Vibration Training may only offer a limited safe way of doing so. Just like it is for cardio.
As a trainer you will know the saying…
” no exercise is an island ”
Vibration Training will never be a 1 stop shop for our training needs no matter how much we want it to be.
Thanks for the info Lloyd. Geez, sounds like those fighters may have hypertrophied a little too much and lost relative strength etc. But, hypertrophy is something a lot of people greatly desire!
I would definitely say their strength went up far more than their weight as they only put on about 2 kg.
But that’s allot of muscle for a fighter to lose for weight in and something I will need to work on.
Hi Llyod,
My curiousity is getting to me. I know you disagree with some of the poses that Vibrogym markets with it’s machines.
Could you ellaborate and let me know specifically what we should be avoiding, I have my own bias against a couple but am really curious knowing you use the pro unit as well.
Thanks & Best Regards,
Ok Dan , here are the things I keep away from as listing all the actual poses would be impossible
Important note: All these restrictions have been put in place in an attempt to make the standard accepted poses as safe as possible for when high energy platforms become common place. This is inevitable but seldom thought about. I think far too many trainers live in the “now”. We must be smarter than that.
It is all about predicting problems , not cleaning them up.
The main rule is ….
” Do the risks outweigh the benefits in a worst case scenario ” ?
(1) No sit ups on the machines, the chances of a mistake are too high. ( I will be writing an entire article on just this pose alone in the future because it concerns me so much )
(2) No “shearing” action on joints. This is were any sideways vibration is applied to a joint.
(3) Any pose trying to isolate just one particular muscle. I try to engage as many as possible in every pose. Hence the term ” King exercise to fatigue ”
The VibroGym Pro would be considered a high energy platform at its highest settings , making a person 6 times their own weight within each movement. It has a removable foam pad.
These are extreme forces we are working with, in no other situation would anybody be asked to shift 6 times their own mass in any direction, something even the most educated trainer fails to fully get their head around yet .
I believe we will continue to hear about injuries with straps .
The combination of zero education with personal trainers and the massive variation of forces and angles using such cheap devices I hope will eventually see them banned.
http://www.topix.net/forum/health/osteoporosis/TMJN6NVQ4B0DMV8UN/p20#lastPost
karen livingston
Avonbridge, UK
Hi there i have had a very bad experience with the power plate which has damaged my upper arm and shoulder so bad i find it hard to sleep.lift things or even drive,since bannantynes gym was told of this they have had a good few complaints and have removed the machine.It has in a sence ruined my fitness..I only used it once and pulled the cords in front of the fitness instructor and felt a pain shoot up my arm..that was last May and im still in pain and hve weakness.Im a very fit 39yr old woman who hasnt any illness so BE WARNED….i cant stress it enough…karenx
Lloyd,
how do settings change – or how do you know when to change settings – as you go through your outlined poses with safety program? I’m assuming as you feel more strength you gradually test yourself using same poses but with different settings. Is there a “chart” for such gradual changes in settings as well, using safety for basis? I don’t know how anyone, without experience and without trainer present, would know just how far to change settings (on home unit) – without just experimenting which may do harm. (You have me spooked about safety and maintaining correct poses, etc.)!
Also, what do you think of built in programs of the Total Vibe (Hypergravity)? How advanced should one be before attempting any built in programs? Do they switch vibrations only within same pose?
In your safety program : “Re-check your position every 20 seconds.” You’re not saying to stop machine to do this – no?
Thanks again.
Hi Kris,
The built in programs on the Hypergravity machines use a variance of preselected frequencies to challenge your muscles. They run for 2 minutes and could be compared to interval training, as to the effect it has on the muscle. The hertz ramp up and down and hold for different periods of time, very challenging, yet once you have worked with them program for a while, very rewarding. The muscle stamina seems to increase dramatically.
As always, positioning is everything. Form must always come before function.
Kind regards, Josh Wiebe
Kris…
No manual or chart for exact Fq etc.. can be made because there are so many units out there with such a variety of settings it would be imposable
In the past I have told people to use common sense and if they are going to change settings to challenge themselves do so in small increments.
Allot of machines have preset programs on them , some people like them , some don’t . They cant hurt you so try them out.
By recheck your position every 20sec. I mean dont ever get arrogant and just “think” you are in the right pose , actually check . You do not need to turn the machine off for this.
Hi Lloyd
Is there a written explanation for the final three bullet poses being the full push-up, pelvic stability and the shoulder press or is it ok just to follow the photos?
To confirm’ this pushes the men’s exercises to 11 and the ladies to 12 poses?
We are training every 2nd day as in Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun, Tues etc. as opposed to 3 times a week. Is this ok?
I also do a light squat on the foam cushion or the bare platform every am before going to work.
I remember you saying you did this yourself b4 going into the mortuary so assumed it was ok?
Is it ok to start the 3 new poses at 30 secs or less and build up from there?
Yes to all your questions.
The very bottom poses are “extras” that can be added after and only when successful safety program is completed.
The idea was that along with the “optional” pose such as the lunge that program could allow for sports particular poses to be added by the trainer at their discretion for real athletes.
Eg Lunge was for Basketballers
Shoulder press for Rugby/NFL players
Pull up , no other company has handle bars
But the fact is so few people can do them safety , they are being taken off the “safety program” poster at next print.
A sports specific poster will be released with complete instructions. In the mean time I will put up instructions for the bottom 3 on the Bullet poster.
Thanks Lloyd
Would you say the same about the pelvic bridge on the toes? I agree that the lunge, shoulder press and actually push up on toes are really hard for people to a) adopt correctly adn b) maintain. I don’t find this for the bridge though – seems generally quite successful and easily correctable when people droop – will this one be staying on the poster?
Yes , and the advanced plank will be added.
Hurrah!
Another idiot Pivotal company putting up links to 2 Lineal companies programs….
http://www.detailshere.com/wholebodyvibration.htm
Popwer Plates new top training tip for squats……..
Do not “hang” off the handle bars.
Written exactly like that , speech marks and all. Looks like they are starting to wake up and listen.
On the various YouTube WBV videos you see mostly people moving all over the place … not holding poses and just standing on the plates, then changing position while moving. I guess then most of the machines demonstrated are therapy types? But when can you actually move, on what settings and for what purposes, on a good training unit like Hypergravity or WAVE?
Some of the YouTube Videos are pivotal therapy machines where standing upright is correct. Others are just plain crazy – people showing how stupid they can be.
Movement is counter-productive for regular training/general public as vibration training works the muscles most effectively in static poses. Some athletes do dynamic work for sports performance training, only under strict supervision but you would really need to be sure it had real purpose as it interupts the muscle response. It might be used specifically for therapy. Personally I’d say contact Lloyd Shaw before doing any dynamic work. That way you’ll know if it’s right for you.
A few units like Pineapple are designed to be low energy and impact and have programs with dynamic poses. Other Plastic “Toy” vibration machines have programs that include dynamic work to make up for the lack in the machine’s performance.
Why you are not meant to move on a Training unit….
Because people ask , dont you have to move to work a muscle..?
Range of motion is only 1 way of activating cells along the entire length of a muscle , pressure is another. Holding a static weight with enough pressure at a 110 degree angle will activate the entire muscle and cellular range. ( Its called “Static Contraction” its where you hold a very heavy weight in one place for as long as you can )
So a machine producing 6 x your own mass will have the same effect.
Placing 6 x your own mass of pressure ( far more than you could hold normally ) and combining it with a full range of motion on a joint will cause “shearing” . It is unavoidable . This minute tissue tear will fix itself if applied in small doses. But the average person will gain no advantage , so the risks outweigh the benefits.
And as Di pointed out , movoing also disrupts the pattern set up by the Fq of the machine and the full stetch reflex cycle.
What you see in those vids is the evidence of companies only caring about sales , they will only “fake” educational interests to gain more sales.
Hi Lloyd
Just had visit from Vibrogym (Tom – think you know him) and Bodyshaker. Both put weight in toes in squats whereas in the Safety programme taught to me by Chrystal weight more in the heels. What would be the different effects and why do you put weight in heels not toes?
We never put all our weight on the toes on a high energy platform. Reason ? Try it yourself and see ….
(1) On toes all the pressure and movement is transferred to the muscles just above the knees. It also places tension on the knee itself. It is an isolation pose. If you understand how the calf muscle produces energy , you do not have to go on your toes to activate it.
I consider it unnecessary and dangerous .
(2) Try it with feet flat with prominent weight in heals , you will feel more muscles are recruited , a much stronger contraction and a more balanced workout is achieved.
Besides that…..
You must not get mixed up with the programs Physios designed years ago on lighter machines to be done with no time restrictions and as many poses they could think of .
Yes we always do in heels here and have found it to be as you said. Just wondering what the raesoning behind both stances would be. Thanks
There is no real good reason to do it on your toes. Its just a throwback from a standard gym pose they throw into Vibration Training like alot of the poses you see in some companies programs. It better than admitting you have no idea what you are doing isnt it ?
I tell people if you want to do calf raises , go do them , just not in here.
Note: It does dampen the vibrations to your head.
But thats a poor excuse to teach someone a bad pose.
Quote: “Note: It does dampen the vibrations to your head. But thats a poor excuse to teach someone a bad pose.”
The only time I’ve used a toes squat (heels off platform) was when I had a little DKN home unit for my family to use. The machine was very low powered overall but the vibration was rough (not controlled). Up on toes gave a pleasant “wakeup” sensation to legs before or after running/walking. – about all the unit was good for actually.
Hi,
Very glad to have found this site as I started using a Proellixe Machine at a local salon out of desperation. I have recently had knee surgery and was told that although I really need a knee replacement that I was not old enough to get one and I would just have to deal with it. I have stage 4 Osteochronditis Dessicans and Stage 4 Chrondo Malacia of the right knee. Physio had been quite ineffective and after researching WBV therapy thought I would try it although not asking any medical professional for their opinion as I figure I have nothing to lose.
I have used it about 10 times for 10 minutes and have had some success in being able to walk without the knee brace, but must admit that I do get some irritaion in both my knees (that seems to ease with major stretching after). There machine is in a spa and there is no one to even recommend what to do on it. I basically just stand on it as straight as I can while it goes through the program. I would love to know if there is any recommendation on how I might best use this machine without doing more damage to my knee, and am also thinking of purchasing a machine for home use but want a good cross between quality and value. I was thinking about the Vibra Pro 5500 because of the size of the motor and the base size but am concerned that the base may be to light in weight. Could anyone please give me their opinions? BTW after sitting on my butt for the last 10 months the idea of muscle toning and inch loss is not unappealing!
Kim….
You really need to do a basic squat position using some kind of side handle bars for support ( see “ski the slopes” on the workout poster at http://www.vibra-train.com/exercises-vt.html , make sure you read instruction VERY carefully ) to strengthen your knee area. Doing the “lock legged” position may offer some small relief, but no real improvement.
Please make sure you do this right or you could cause more damage. Follow all the same rules as the basic squat for foot placement, angles and weight distribution. Keep the machine at a low speed, approx.10 hz.
The Vibra Pro 5500 is a decent machine.
Hi Lloyd,
Thanks you so much for your comments. I spent hours on this site trying to find my original comments and any responses and finally found it!
As there is no handles on the Proellixe not sure how I will do it properly. Do I hold the pose suggested for as long as I can and then just stand back up for the rest of the program? Her machine is in a small corner of her shop with very little space so couldn’t even do many of the exercises you show. Actually didn’t even know you were suppose to do anything other than just stand on it! The bending is the toughest on my knee joint for sure so I know this will be tough. Can’t do a 90degree against the wall at the Physios yet. I still one step it on stairs, especially to go down them.
I actually find the higher settings (they don’t show hz, just levels)12 and up (highest I’ve gone is level 15 for 6 minutes on their “tonic” program and the level 7 & 8 for the rest of the program seems to be more jarring on my neck. Is it actually working my body harder at the lower levels? I don’t know how that translates into the hz levels that you talk about but I think that machine has a 30hz limit?
Question? I have realized after spending many hours on this site that there are different types of WBV machines which seem to require different techniques.
The one I am on has no “rest” periods, you just go through the program which is 10 minutes long and was told to come in 5 times a week for 10 minutes a session? I think I understand that this is a pivitol/oscillating machine where a lot of the discussion here is on Lineal/Vertical? I am still finding these terms somewhat confusing.
For obvious reasons the “therapy” aspect needs to come 1st, but I was quite the athelete (distance biking, skipping, basketball)prior to this and some other injuries and now find myself 30lbs heavier (basically sedentary) than my comfort level so the toning and muscle building is also extremely important, especially if I can get both by buying the right machine. I am on the West Coast in Canada so not sure which machines are available to me, but I can afford a more expensive machine if the benefits will make it worth it. Would the lineal/vertical machine ultimately be better? If so any recommendations? or would either help me reach my goals and maintain them? I have yet to find specific info on this site that states the benefits or limitations of either machine (assuming quality is similar?)PS my husband is a body builder (not extreme) and is also interested in using the machine in addition to my 16 year old daughter.
I have read through most of the information on the site, and clicked through to some of the machines indicated through this blog only to be more confused. I had no idea when I started that there were so many different options! There are no studios here in Vancouver and no “experts” to ask or even try out different machines. I just happened on the “Prolliexe” through an ad in the paper and the lady that owns it is very nice but really has no knowledge of the machine or safety parameters she just owns it because Proellixe promots the money a business can make by owning it. (been on their site and can buy that machine for $7900)but if not really any better than the VP5500 don’t want to pay the difference.
Your guidance is a life saver as aside from the money I don’t want to buy something with limited use or potential safety issues. I am thinking that with my obvious limitations I will need to use the machine for the rest of my life. I read on one of the sites (promoting lineal I think) the the pivotal could cause “shearing” and damge the knee joint long term thus the concern.
Thank you again for the time you have taken to help me!
Kim…
(1) Do not attempt the squat pose without some kind of side handle bars. Taking sufficient weight through your arms will take the pressure off the knees, allowing you to hold the correct angles.
Coming out of that perfect 110 degree angle will do you more harm than good. No compromise can be made on this point. This is very important for you to understand.
If you can not find something ( eg.. tall chairs, walker etc.. ) then do not do it at all. This will be the same rule for a Lineal machine for you. So maybe getting a home version and getting your husband to sort something out for you might be best. You can always contact me with ideas for this. That is why even my machines have side handle bars ( as per the program I showed you ).
(2) Running a Pivotal at 2 high a speed “lock legged” will cause shearing on the knees. It is a slow speed Therapy pose only. If you go higher you MUST get into correct workout poses, or risk hurting your knees, lower back, neck etc…
(3) There are about 250 brands selling things no bigger than a sex toy to huge commercial products. It is a minefield for the uneducated consumer and a playground for unethical marketers. So even if it appears confusing now, keep reading, it will all come together in your head at some point and you will just “get it”.
Try contacting some of the companies on the adverts up top, like Wave or HG.
Hi Lloyd,
Thanks for the info. Think I found out the hard way today. Used the machine today and tried the “ski pose and the basic squat and have been paying for it all day icing for the last few hours. Should I just do the basic stand up straight (slight bend knees i’ve learnt) for the rest of my sessions? They are already paid for till end of month. I would definitely rig something up at home so that I can do it just need a machine!
Also somewhat important,
1) would you suggest the the Wave machine is worth the $4000 or so more in cost than the Vibra Pro 5500 in terms of quality and better effectiveness? I did look at them but they seem to be lower powered and subtantially pricy
2)If I go up close to the price of a Wave would the Gallieo machines be a better buy? I believe all of these machines use the same wave platform so that part would be the same.
I know I am trying to get specific but believe me, I have spent weeks trying to sort it out and you know the saying “a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous” applies here, because I may be using the wrong parameters to decide if a machine is good or not. (ie horse power and brand of the motor weight of machine etc)Again, we don’t have any studio or WBV machines here in use that I can find so no idea what a good one should “feel like”
Thanks Again!
(1) Use the machine on low speed until you use up your month.
(2) You can not compare Lineal power with Pivotal speed. They are really too different. The only way you are going to settle that one is try both systems.
(3) Wave is Lineal
Galileo is Pivotal
No comparison in how they feel or how you will react to one. Sorry it is very particular to the individual.
Is there no Lineal machines in your whole town , not even a Power Plate ?
Hi Lloyd,
You are missing a great market here believe me! The only thing I can find here is a couple of salons that have a Proellixe machine, possibly because the Canadian distributor is here. If this technology actually works for me, both therapy and training, I am considering opening up a studio here, as I was a very busy Realtor prior to this and running around like that seems to be off the table for me now so need a new career. I just have to be my own walking testimonial 1st (pardon the pun) and I would have the place full! I actually scouted a location today but don’t want to put the cart before the horse and want to make sure it actually works for me 1st.
More I find out about the Proellixe is appears that it is sub par as far as wbv machines go, so not really getting a good test it appears. When you say low speed (speeds being 1 to 20) do mean 10 and under?
Need to find a decent machine to buy so that I can really get a feel for what they can do.
Am not missing it out on purpose. We had to wait for our TradeMark in the U.S. to be accepted. Now with it done and having priority consent everywhere else we can now accept offers.
I would hazard a guess of level 10 and under for the ProEllixe.