Pivotal and Lineal Machines
Note: I would like to point out these two systems should never be in competition with each other. It is purely a marketing war to do so - not a science driven argument.
Lineal Design
Predator versus prey
To understand this theory look at yourself in the mirror. Front and side on. Ask yourself a couple of questions.
Yes they may appear unrelated at first but bear with me, I will explain.
(a) Where are my eyes situated ?
(b) Where is my muscle mass on my body ?
You will of course find your eyes situated at the front of your skull. This will tell you we have binocular vision - we have depth perception (we can tell how far away something is). This allows us to project an attack at an object with very good accuracy, suggesting we have evolved as a PREDATOR species.
This is very different than some animals like horses that can not. This is why they will jump over a puddle only an inch deep. They are not nervous about water, they just can not tell how deep the puddle is. They are PREY animals where peripheral vision comes in very handy when something is trying to catch you from behind and eat you. Unlike grass that does not run away.
Eyes front of the head: PREDATOR
Eyes side of the head: PREY
So our body is a well developed for seeing an object; judging its distance; running towards and catching it with enough force to kill it. This would also come in handy if we had to “fight” for our lives. Which is why we automatically turn to face an attacker if surprised.
Running quickly at something by definition also gives us the ability to run away from something. That’s where the “flight” part comes in.
A Quick Experiment
Get someone to push you from the front while you push back. Then get them to push you from the side while you try to again push back. You will notice the marked difference in the amount of energy it takes to push you around. From the front you have good all round ability to not only balance but also fight back. As opposed to the side where all your energy will be used just to keep balance.
This clearly shows us that the human body is well developed to absorb and produce large amounts of Lineal pressure. But a much lower degree of Pivotal can be handled. When in contact with a Vibration Platform the body not only gets pushed - but it also pushes back. So a direct powerful response will always be favoured for a “workout ” type movement. As these larger muscles use up far more calories than any other exercise program in an involuntary reflex due to their sheer size and cell mass.
Muscle Placement
The actual placement and size of muscles on our body also backs up this equation. As our muscles are placed in a Lineal fashion. Take the legs for example. The Quad and Hamstring (our “drive” muscles) are much larger by far than our Adductor muscles. We can never run sideways as fast or as powerfully as we can forwards.
The moment we vary from the Lineal path before us we exponentially lose power.
Pivotal Design
The above theory in no way though displaces the importance on Pivotal movement - as this is the primary rebalancing response and without this our Lineal design would have a major flaw - quite simply we would keep falling over.
Our support muscles must be kept in balance with our “drive” muscles or injury would be inevitable. As every time you tried to turn you would fall sideways. In fact all the smaller groups of muscles that make up our rebalancing responses are also responsible for holding our body together.
This is very apparent when athletes are clearly strong but a minor injury brings them down.
This type of weakness can also be responsible for such things as incontinence or the more serious fall of an older person cased by pelvic instability - which in some cases can lead to an early death due to blood clots in bone fractures.
The sideways action of a Pivotal machine is the most effective way of targeting these weak points in our design - but in my opinion would mainly fall into the “Therapy” mindset and should be treated with even more caution than Lineal programs. As correct positioning of a new client is much harder to judge on a Pivotal unit.
Conclusion
Both systems are valid but should be used for different purposes - not in competition with each other. The only reason I personally favour Lineal for use with the public at the moment is it’s ease of use. In fact the first machine I ever made was Pivotal - and I will be releasing one in the near future. I picture all good Studios, Gyms and Physio’s will have both types of machines and will also hopefully have the appropriate programs attached.
154 Comments
- Jason
March 3rd, 2007Thomas and Peter M
Dont take a different opinion as a personal attack . This is a forum remember .
And must learn that unfortunateley there is NOT a machine which can do everything .
Something else, unfortunately the pivotal salesmen have this behaviour saying that the only good vibration is Pivotal , several times i came in difficult position with this . Why that ?
And please answear me about the hormones produced from the head , are they less when exercise on a pivotal machine ? Yes or No
Whith Great appreciation
Jason….
the hormone ( which hormone ? ) production you ask about is very complicated and has nothing to do with the vibrations making its way into the head.Production of these can be caused by a reaction to pain/fatigue , fight/flight or an anabolic/repairing response. The range is huge.
This is by far the more complicated side to Vibration Training with these particular responses needing to be understood , mapped and incorperated into the design of the machine before production.
Then the programs must match. Or even the best machine will fail to do its task.
- Jason
March 3rd, 2007Lloyd
I speak for hormones like HGH .
I know that HGH produced far less when training on a pivotal than a linear machine because of no head vibrations .
And when the Vibra-Train Safety Program will be released ? I am very curious .
Regards
- Site Administrator
March 4th, 2007@Thomas “Is there a site administrator on this site? ”
Yes there is - and I will say that like you - I am very disappointed by the bickering etc.
This site was set-up by a web design firm (see about page) - and I have absolutely no affiliation with WBV - in fact I consider myself a skeptic.
I invited Lloyd Shaw to submit articles (which he does via email) as he seemed like someone who could provide some thought-provoking discourse on the matter of WBV.
I don’t know enough except to post and comment on other media articles. Lloyd was willing to occasionally submit articles. I admit it seems like a conflict of interest - but where on earth else will I find people who are knowledgeable about WBV who are not connected in some way to the industry?
If anyone else wants to submit an article they are most welcome (see contact details on bottom right of page). However if it looks like a sales pitch - then I may not post the article.
I do my level best to remove/edit any material that seems like self-promotion. On this blog - there are two advertising blocks marked “Ads by google”. Outside of that I take a dim view of marketing babble that disguises itself as editorial content.
Yes it is unfortunate Site Admin , but was always going to happen as it has to other sites before. These people do not come on here looking for answers as others do.
Some are salespeople , others are academics , but they still live by the same rules.
They wait until someone else does some work. Then spend the rest of their lives trying to figure out how to make a living or name from their efforts.
Not my cup of tea.
- KG
March 4th, 2007As far as my take regarding the information and bickering on this blog,
Where else will you find a forum that hashes out this topic on the Net???
Just as cream rises to the top so does the truth. Bickering is another word for argument. Whenever you get two sides that have differing opinions and are passionate-toes will be stepped on.
The beauty I believe for the viewer is that you are able to see both sides, can suspect motivations, and am I the only one on here that can discern a sales pitch or marketeer a mile away on their postings?
I think the SA has done a good job of keeping the exchange a free flowing affair. Lloyd knows quite a bit about this stuff, if others of similar backgrounds want to write some I hope they submit. The fireworks that ensue(if any) will only give us(the users) better perspective and unique insights to our use and training with WBV
- Mery
March 5th, 2007Hello,
people the forum is going in another direction as should go.
I am so sorry that people with different point of view receive those opinions as personal attacks, and I am so sorry!,.. but Lloyd you are the author of the article you have to accept also the critics and don’t feel them as personal attack.
So, I have to make a critic: if you are writing an article, It should be objective and don’t include your opinion on it, Your opinions are more than welcome! you are a good expertise, I saw it; but the place to do that, as you are also doing, in later on… in the forum. Writing in the article your own conclusion saying things as: pivotal training is the best for rehabilitation or therapy, you are saying, whole the people that is reading the article, that training with vertical vibration is better…
The competition can not be avoid, when we are speaking about these two systems for one application, the training.I would like to go back to the forum, where everybody is welcome to share their knowledge about vertical and pivotal system also! and where the people is asking and answering according their personal opinion and experience, that’s the way we can learn something else and then as adults, as the most of we are, we can get our own conclusion.
- Pete
March 5th, 2007Hi all,
I agree the bickering on this site needs to stop.
I am very disappointed that Lloyd did not comment on my questions. Perhaps it is difficult since it is such a new tecnology.
I have read and re read the article that Lloyd sent in but I still can not see what the difference in results from the two different technologies would be.
Both produce a action/reaction.
Both work with frequencies amplitudesWhy would there be a difference between the reaction of the body with the different frequencies???
I guess the discussion could be moved on from here by discussing the different positions to take up on the platforms and then discuss the benefits of these in general. I would also be very interested to understand any of the experienced users on what is considered as potential harming excercises. Would also be good to know what just is a waste of time by not having any effect at all.
To Peter M. You have made some very strong statements here and I would like to understand how you can have background for these.
BR
- Kris
March 5th, 2007Frankly, for those of us in “fly over” country - without these studios with experts to call upon and feeling that having a home model we would be like flying without a co-pilot, I would luuuuuuv for Lloyd or another expert to make a real good DVD with correct positions from beginning to advanced. Since this is all pretty new to most I would think such an instructional video would be very successful. Prior to that, would someone pulleeeeze direct us to a basic outline of positions, proper safe settings for those positions perhaps according to weight of user, settings for therapy graduated to settings for training, how long intervals for each setting should last, what are the signs to stop and start, etc.????
Is this not possible? Pictures speak thousands of words. Or, could there be a forum just for dummies? I don’t think any of us are going to jump in and get involved if the experts are only arguing here the finer points or reasonings for the mechanics of particular machines. I think, by now, we have some lists of just those models that are reliable for therapy, training or both. Now we need to know what WE are supposed to do with them!!
Thanks in advance.
Critical exploration of my articals is what they are written for. Thats how these conversations are meant to start. So I welcome this.
But to jump on and say that zoological facts should not be represented in our programs and engineering of these units , because it doesnt suit your sales pitch is not proper critisism.
By all means pull the artical to pieces , disect every sentence. But then be prepared to have a good reasonable arguement to back up your actions.
Just because….. will never cut it here.
Pete , Mery and all ….
to make my conclusion from the artical clearer.
There are a myriad of factors in Vibration Training ( 9 basic ) . What my artical was trying to point out was if pressure is one part of the equation you are playing with , then a ” Lineal Plane ” and ” Pivotal Axis ” are going to be represented in two different ways.
Think of a bench press machine , it is fixed in a Lineal plane right ?
Now think of the same machine built with a pivot just in front of your chest. So only one arm can be pushed out while the other gets pushed back.These actions can not be compared. And I believe it is unsafe to do so.
You will have to trust me I have no reason to favour one system over the other. I have developed a Pivotal system with no load bearing restrictions for my studio network and it will be released when I believe the basic education surrounding Lineal is done.
Peter M….
just a small question re critisim of my artical http://www.vibrationtraining.net/2007/02/pivotal-and-lineal-machines#comment-986.Where you accuse me of having alterior motives for writing it.
In your research you provided, to prove your point. You submitted a number of studies done by C. Bosco.
Is this Dr Carmelo Bosco who developed and tested the NEMES ” LINEAL ” machine and not a Pivotal unit at all ?
- Wayne Campbell
March 5th, 2007This is the only site I know of that is offering such a wide range of views and discussion and information regarding vibration training.
If you dont like whats happening here go and read the totally biased market driven sites.
Otherwise look objectively at all the information that is freely flowing here and make up your own minds and learn!!
Also this site contains some very passionate people, passionate about the safe development of the technology and the people using it, so sure sparks will fly from time to time.
Get over it.
To those that are contributing, questioning, (except the marketers) keep up the good work!!
- peter m
March 6th, 2007@ Lloyd
i’ll quote some of your posting to make the discussion more clear
–”Maybe you should ask yourself a relevant question. If Peter M’s an ethical trader who’s concerns for the public are real , by his own admission he has been in the industry for 6+ years. But never once in all those years spoken out against Power-Plates behaviour.”–
What do you mean with that I never once in all those years spoken out against power plates behaviour? I really don’t get this point please explain
–”To all….
Both Thomas and Peter T have previously been on here claiming Pivotal is the ONLY way to go. And no other system can work. And even going as far as embellishing its history.”–I never claimed that pivotal is the only way to go, I have said several times that for me the only reason to buy a vertical system is when you have a small budget! Because yes I do believe that the correct pivotal systems have more to offer in all ranges. About embellishing its history, common please… this is getting a bit simple. But i’ll see if i can show you some real prove on this if you don’t believe me on my word but for your self claim that your words are the truth.
–”Also why is it neither of them will attach their real names to statements they make.”–
What is that for lobby smart talks, what differences does a name make? This is for me just a bad excuse of pointing out to somebody.
–”Think of a bench press machine , it is fixed in a Lineal plane right ?
Now think of the same machine built with a pivot just in front of your chest. So only one arm can be pushed out while the other gets pushed back.”–This is one excersise 1. and it all has to do with the balance between you agonist and anti agonist. So it’s won’t be dangerous since they both are trained equally it could be even benefit to envoid injuries. But like I say you’re trying to to explain the differences on 1 excersise while almost all excersises are performed from a standing position. And which I already explained by a pivotal system the body works from the whole legs up in to the trunk, back muscles and abdominals. While at a vertical system you mainly only get the real tension on the calves even at 50 Hertz. When you perform on a basic start position on the machine.
–”You will have to trust me I have no reason to favour one system over the other. I have developed a Pivotal system with no load bearing restrictions for my studio network and it will be released when I believe the basic education surrounding Lineal is done.”–
Why trust you if you cannot trust anybody else who doubts some or your points, seems a bit unfair to me, not that I’m concerned about this in even the slightest point.
–”
Is this Dr Carmelo Bosco who developed and tested the NEMES ” LINEAL ” machine and not a Pivotal unit at all ?”–Funny and a good point indeed, offcourse this is Carmelo Bosco. I picked the references from a Galileo document I had in front of me, But this is a good point everybody knows that Bosco’s and Issurin published a lot of researches for their own interest. Scrap them off no problem I think you still know that a company of Galileo has enough medical research sources, so I don’t see what you want to prove with this point. In fact you were telling me you didn’t like all studies because none of them is performed with both systems in the same researches so why bring up this again, just trying to make me a black sheep again, and try to convince people I’m a evil marketeer? But still claim that you’re only here to give an independent opinion on your own…. to bad
@ Jason
Where are you from if i may ask Jason? And your own personal experience that is something that nobody can refute. I have exactly the opposite opinion.
Like I already declared above if you want to spend less money buy a vertical system I agree if you spend more in my opinion you would be stupid to not buy a pivotal system!And a question to you what is a good linear plateau according to you then, because I still think this is way of from reality and also training excersises are far more effective on a pivotal system then on every single vertical plate I have stand. (and those are quit a lot).
@ mike
I would be very interesting in trying one of Lioyds machines, maybe i already even did without knowing it. Just give me the name of these devices and I’ll do my research. Or maybe you can explain me the differences between Lloyds machines and the normal vertical systems. But I’m afraid this is really not the truth, saw already to many of those useless claims like the last one with powerplate airdaptive.
Looking forward to your comments and i’ll not be here everyday i simply don’t have the time for that but i’ll be in touch.
- Green
March 6th, 2007Hello All:
Through all of this would any of you be so good as to give us the benefit of your experience–in your personal experience and observation what is the best machine system (lineal/pivotal/turbosonic) for rehabilitation/weight-loss and which for training? Would appreciate your obseervation here. In general I am looking for a tool for weight loss as well as muscle building for my patients. Thank you. - Green
March 6th, 2007Further to my above–
I heard that with pivotal machines people are experiencing more stress on the hip joints–your opinion please. Thanks. Peter M…
My points where clear , and used as a warning to the reading public.(a) You claim to be heavily involved in the industry for some time. But never once spoken out against unethical marketing practices before now. Until your sales are threatened ?
(b) Your constant claim the Pivotal system is far superior to any other is not science based. As you dont even supply a theory for this opinion ?
(c) You even added positive “Lineal” test results to your marketing material of a “Pivotal” system. ( with no disclaimer ) In a deliberate attempt to fool the public and pump up your arguement and sales ?
(d) You refuse to put your name to any statement you make. Anyone with real conviction and good intentions would have no issue with this.
This above behaviour is unfortunatly very common and has not helped our industries reputation.
Now before everyone jumps on and tells me off for picking on poor Peter M. Please stand back and see this exchange for what it is. A lesson .
Everyone who reads this will now know to ask a few more questions before handing their money over to a salesman.
That has to be a good thing.
- Dan V.
March 6th, 2007Score Loyd………… 1
Peter M. …………. 0 Now , Now Dan. It’s not a competition.
But at least spell my name correctly on the winners cup ok ?
I notice with some degree of amusement (and alarm) that people are discussing the removal of cellulite, like it is something in its own right?!?!
I was under the impression that it was purely subcutaneous adipose tissue (FAT)!? Just like the fat on your arms chest and around your organs? Is that not the case? is not the whole cellulite thing purely a cosmetic term that is as much to do with muscle, skin tone, and skin colour as it is to do with anything else (cellulite, cosmetics and the whole beauty therapy industry?? - it’s amazing how creating a term can spawn a whole industry!).
Therefore, reduce body fat, increase muscle (and skin) tone, get a tan - et voila - reduce cellulite (i.e. visible fat) lol!
I also noticed in one of the previous blog some one (Sam Lee?) pointing out a study (Roelants et al. 2004)
that showed no improvement/change in body composition (body fat in particular) following WBV. The thing that really alarmed me from that study which no one seemed to notice was that following a regime of CV/Resistance training (comparison group), they also showed no change/improvement in body composition (in particular the reduction of body fat).The author of the blog used that research article to ‘prove’ that there was clear evidence that WBV didn’t work. If that were the case, is the same author equally ready to say that CV and resistance exercise (the approach of the fitness industry backed by considerable research) also plays NO role in body composition/fat loss?? then surely all these positive results that people have gained over the years are all placebo and the world or exercise and fitness is all a fraud???
Additionally, the research (Roelants et al. 2004) also pointed out that significant increases in lean tissue were found in the WBV group ONLY! and found greater increases in strength than the fitness training group.
So in conclusion:
Cellulite is fat - so call it fat! (sounds more like a character from Dr Who!)
WBV has no direct reduction in body fat as a training device but DOES remove body fat through the increase in lean tissue and therefore the increase in metabolism(plus the associated hormonal response) - (as does resistance training)
The whole practitioner vs. academic debate is as old as the hills! and equally as dull! Both parties have their strengths and weaknesses, admit them and work together it will progress both parties far quicker!
- peter m
March 7th, 2007@harvey
i copied a text from a conclusion after researching cellulite from one of the brands i work with. i change the name of the factory in to WBV since then i’ll be again seen as a marketeer. i hope it’s ussefull:
WBV, due to its patented vibration mechanism, has shown to be a very positive influence on beauty.
This is a result of the fat cells being affected by the vibration to dissipate the fat and liquid – Only capable with the patented mechanism of the WBV. Not only are new cell generation promoted, but the vibrations create more Keratin to be produced resulting in tighter and more radiant skin.This thanks to the better circulation of the liquid in the body which appears at lower frequencies, with as result that the skin gets a better drawing.
With 90% of the Western women experiencing cellulites, the WBV has proven to be an invaluable tool in its resolve.Cellulites are fat tissues that have bands of connective tissues in them. These tissues are found in certain areas of the body: the thighs, abdominal area and buttocks for the women. Men have cellulites in the neck and in the abdomen. Often, they are whiter or several shades lighter than their skin tones and causes the surface of the skin to dimple or pucker and look lumpy. When proper circulation occurs, smooth layers ensue; but when fluids in the layers, the stored fats, and chemical toxins do not get flushed out and are trapped within the skin, the tissues harden and thicken, thus producing bumpy lines in the skin. Although all people have basically the same smooth layers of cellulite, the resulting appearance will depend upon genetics, the lifestyle of the person, poor circulation, refined sugar, caffeine, alcohol and the weight of the individual, which are all factors in the cellulite formation.
Because the WBV releases connective tissue and increases blood flow dramatically, it allows for the evacuation of waste products to create positive results in the prevention of cellulite.
Another advantage of WBV unique vibration technology is that weight loss (up to 15%) can occur in a considerably shortened period of time. This is accomplished because up to 90% of muscle fibers are effected by the vibration training. This results in a large “combustion engine”, that will result in fat being burned more rapidly and efficiently than conventional exercise. And since blood circulation is improved, waste products are removed more effectively as well.
But as far as i know there are 2 variants one described above and another one but that story is based on inflammations and that’s ab it harder to explain or tread with WBV systems.
- peter m
March 7th, 2007@Lloyd
(a)I still don’t see where you wanna go with this? Why are my sales threatened? Unethical marketing practices, where are you pointing at because I don’t think this is the issue?
(b)I do and I always will till somebody proves I’m wrong, And the reason I even got involved in this discussion is because you wrote and claimed things that were also according to my sources and opinion where not correct. You claimed that the pivotal system is not good to train on and only very well usable for rehabilitation and massage/coordination usage. Well I strongly disagree and I still don’t understand why on earth you think that. And I have motivated my issues very well and do do it again a simple question for you;, why are so many professional sport teams training on pivotal systems an very few on linear systems? The main reason for sport teams to train on WBV is to be in perfect condition/rehabilitation/massage for warming up and most important to train the body! So think logical and you’ll see that you’re way off with your claim that you cannot train properly on a pivotal system, and trust me it’s not marketing because the 2 only giants on pivotal systems have shitty marketing they don’t even come close to the big linear brands.
(c) I said that those researches shouldn’t be taken serious because they are made by the owner of his own brand. off course he claims them positive. I was only wondered why that particular brand published them since they had no affection to the system they promote and that research isn’t really a good one.
(d) this is the most funny one, still bashing on the name because you just want to make an argument…. I won’t publish my name for the reason that names on a forum have no value at all, I choose my nick as Peter M, I ass well could have picked to be named as Michael Jackson, who cares it proves nothing! Silly discussion about names only waste of time no argument at all.
And a lesson for what?, goss the ego… in my country they say that people who claim to know it all in fact know very little… take that as a lesson.
But I have very less interest turning this into a personal issue between us I prefer to talk about WBV in general and I’m sure that I can have also very interesting discussion with you about the differences and other areas concerning vibration training. So I can drop the brand names and talk about devices in general no problem, I hope you’ll put yourself a bit more open for other opinions then I’m sure it will only improve the quality of the forum. Harvey…
Read cellulite artical I wrote in 2004To all readers…
I do not expect everybody here to agree with my theory’s on Vibration Training and what I am trying to do. If thats all I wanted then I could always pay a marketer to worship me or repeat everything I said.
I still have much to learn , but I do know one thing , money doesn’t ” float my boat ” like it should. Go figure ?
So the ONLY reason I am doing any of this is because I believe I can.
We have a guy here in N.Z. called Sir Edmund Hillary. After he finished the worlds first climb of Mt. Everest he was asked ” so why did you do it ? ”
His answer was perfect…. ” because it was there “
- Jason
March 14th, 2007Maxuvibe experience
Today i tried maxuvibe . I can say that is better than galileo and more powerful . I suppose this happens because maxuvibe has much more mass.
The training session was very good and i belie very effctive .
BUT
I noticed something i want to share with you . I didnt sweat . Even though i felt my muscles training, i didnt sweat as i do on my Linear machine (i dont tell the brand because i dont want to hear like a marketeer).
This event tells me enough to undersand the difference betwen pivotal and lineal vibration .
@Lloyd
The trainer told me that if i sit on the middle of Maxuvibes plate is like doing lineal exercise . Is it true ? Firstly good on you for getting off your ass , and actually trying new units.
(a) Yes , you will expend more energy on a Lineal unit than a Pivotal. But the sweating is not always evidence of this. Sweating is very individual and is more to do with your ” raised core body temp. ”
Eg…
2 people could be pushing weights , one sweating , one not. This in no way means the one sweating is trying harder.Some people doing Anaerobic activity will not sweat at all.
(b) NO , standing in the middle of a Pivotal unit is NOT the same as standing on a Lineal machine.
Everybody dont be surprised when you see the headlines
” VIBRA-TRAIN MAN KILLS SALESMAN
WITH BLUNT OBJECT “It may even be their own machine I use.
- Jason
March 17th, 2007Hallo Lloyd
I Noticed that the weight Hypergravity Elite Professional macine is about 88 Kg , and the Bodyshaker 100 Kg .
Is this enough to chose the Bodyshaker even though the Elite Professional has more frequency settings ?
The two machines are all steel and made from good companies so normaly the Bodyshaker would create more efficient vibrations because of its greater weight
Are my thoughts correct ?
No the mass of the hulls ( where the motors are ) may in fact be indentical.
The extra weight may be in the frame correct ?
Which in this case it is. But something to note in further comparisons.
- Jason
March 18th, 2007Lloyd you r correct .
But until the tests become true the buyer is in Dark .
Anyway by your personal experience which machine you think has more effective vibrations ?
- Jason
March 18th, 2007For training of course
Hello Jason,
According to the two manufacturers’ specification, HYPERGRAVITY ELITE PRO has a loading capacity of 180 kg.; and BodyShaker has 150 kg.
Unless BodyShaker is more conservative or HYPERGRAVITY too aggressive in their statement, HYPERGRAVITY ELITE PRO seems having a little more powerful oscillators.
Based on these info, I would vote for HYPERGRAVITY ELITE PRO between two.
However, there are much better choices like VIBRA-TRAIN BULLET with 180 kg / loading capacity 300 kg. or FITVIBE EXCEL PRO with 120 kg. / loading capacity 250 kg.
TC
- Jason
March 18th, 2007So TC
At my previous post i asked if THE WEIGHT OF A MACHINE is a parameter of the quality of the vibrations produced .So you think that the maximum loading capacity is a parameter of effectiveness of the vibrations produced by a machine ?
If its true all data comes upside down , because a non steel machine like fitvibe can produce more effective training vibrations than the all steel Hypergravity and Bodyshaker machines .
Regards
The weight “can” be an indication of quality. But not always.
Power-Plate added a larger metal plate to a version of the NG . To increase the overall mass. It did help with the walking, but it didn’t make the world of difference in the quality/feel of the product.
Also alot of the new European all-steel units dont measure up.
A Vibration Training device is a physics equation. And “everything” means something.
“Cause” and “Effect” ( and there are 5 basic effects alone ) ) in balance is needed. Or not only will it not feel good. It also wont work.
Jason,
Like Lloyd explained, weight of a device is just one of many factors to determine its quality. And as he said, not every all-steel device can produce good vibration.
The best way of evaluation is to try every unit by yourself and your own experience can tell which is a better vibration training device.
However, if we have to measure by specification sheets, I think the following 3 factors do give you a hint of the quality of a vibration training device:
1) Mass of Hull. Steel is of course the first choice. And then some devices with reinforced plastic hull can still do a decent job in vibration energy transmission. The worst is definitely those cheap and softer plastic plate that usually appear in black.
2) Loading capacity. It indicates the strength of the oscillator. A more powerful oscillator can of course bear a heavier load. A more powerful oscillator can also generate stronger vibration energy.
3) Weight of Device. If an oscillator is so powerful generating a strong vibration energy, it requires a heavy base otherwise the device will walk.
By understanding these factors and their relation, we can make rough guess that a lighter weight device is using less powerful oscillator giving less vibration energy; contrarily, a heavier device indicates it has more powerful oscillator(s); otheerwise the manufacturer would not make it so heavy as it costs more in materials as well as in logistic. Again, as Lloyd said, it is about “balancing”.
Another factor I did not mention above is suspension system. A good suspension system helps to transmit the vibration energy upwards and evenly distributed all over the platform. However, I cannot figure out how to measure this factor by reading a specification list.
TC
TC….
tests can be done for this with a simple hand held device. If you know what to look for and what to compare it too.A comparison chart will be up on the VTA website, along with ” Static Load ” and ” Dynamic Load” tests on available units.
I understand this will not be popular with some manufacturors but I wasn’t expecting Christmas cards from them anyway.
In the future I believe all companies with decent models will release these types of figures in the specs. As the consumer awareness raises. It will be to their advantage.
TC….
Did you get a reply from FitVibe ? It would seem they have chosen commercial gain over ethics as Cheap Asian units are still being advertised by their supplier over here.Hello Lloyd,
Is the website of VTA launched already? What is the full address of this website?
What much is the handheld measuring instrument expensive? What brand and model do you suggest? I would like to buy one if its price is affordable to me.
I had communication with Peter of FITVIBE concerning ELITE FITNESS carrying the cheap devices. Peter said he would follow this forum closer and you might see his name here later. In the meantime, I guess Peter and his FITVIBE staff must be busy in preparing for FIBO 2007.
Will you participate or visit FIBO?
TC
No the VTA website has not been launched to the public yet. I am waiting for a few pieces to fall into place first.
Search under ” hand held vibration meter ” in your local google engine. A good one should only be about $200 ( U.S. ).
F.I.B.O. are in my opinion to be directly responsable for alot of the earlier unethical marketing surrounding this industry. Making money from the confusion.
I sent this meaasge to F.I.B.O.
Is Power-Plate allowed to attach the “Inovation Award ” to any product
they like. Or is it only allowed to be used in conjuction with the same
model that was inspected.I am only asking you because you gave out the prize .
It would seem that there are no regulations around the usage of these
awards you give out. And if Power-Plate decided to attach it to an
electric toothbrush next year , you will not try to stop them.I do not want to bring my machines all the way from New Zealand , to maybe
win an award that will not be taken seriously.I hope you will sit down and think about this problem , and come up with a
solid answer .This message was sent to me by SVEN OEHRKE in reply.
The Award is given for one product. The Award is given by a Jury
of 5 people. The TUV Rheinland Group is just the founder of the Award. The
Award is only valid for the honored product (not for new or different
products). The Award in 2002 was given to the company “Powerplate-Germany”
and to the product “Powerplate”. (I send you the picture yesterday). If
someone is advertizing with the Award which is not correct than this is
forbidden, and we will follow this with our General Councel.
Maybe we see us one time in germany or anywhere else and we can have a
coffee together.
March 3rd, 2007
Thomas….
Just a small comment you made in your last post got me thinking. If you already consider yourself fully educated…
“It’s going to get to the point where any educated person will stay away and look for a more independent blog, or just do their own research.” .
Why not submit an original artical so you can become the target for once.