Pivotal and Lineal Machines
Note: I would like to point out these two systems should never be in competition with each other. It is purely a marketing war to do so - not a science driven argument.
Lineal Design
Predator versus prey
To understand this theory look at yourself in the mirror. Front and side on. Ask yourself a couple of questions.
Yes they may appear unrelated at first but bear with me, I will explain.
(a) Where are my eyes situated ?
(b) Where is my muscle mass on my body ?
You will of course find your eyes situated at the front of your skull. This will tell you we have binocular vision - we have depth perception (we can tell how far away something is). This allows us to project an attack at an object with very good accuracy, suggesting we have evolved as a PREDATOR species.
This is very different than some animals like horses that can not. This is why they will jump over a puddle only an inch deep. They are not nervous about water, they just can not tell how deep the puddle is. They are PREY animals where peripheral vision comes in very handy when something is trying to catch you from behind and eat you. Unlike grass that does not run away.
Eyes front of the head: PREDATOR
Eyes side of the head: PREY
So our body is a well developed for seeing an object; judging its distance; running towards and catching it with enough force to kill it. This would also come in handy if we had to “fight” for our lives. Which is why we automatically turn to face an attacker if surprised.
Running quickly at something by definition also gives us the ability to run away from something. That’s where the “flight” part comes in.
A Quick Experiment
Get someone to push you from the front while you push back. Then get them to push you from the side while you try to again push back. You will notice the marked difference in the amount of energy it takes to push you around. From the front you have good all round ability to not only balance but also fight back. As opposed to the side where all your energy will be used just to keep balance.
This clearly shows us that the human body is well developed to absorb and produce large amounts of Lineal pressure. But a much lower degree of Pivotal can be handled. When in contact with a Vibration Platform the body not only gets pushed - but it also pushes back. So a direct powerful response will always be favoured for a “workout ” type movement. As these larger muscles use up far more calories than any other exercise program in an involuntary reflex due to their sheer size and cell mass.
Muscle Placement
The actual placement and size of muscles on our body also backs up this equation. As our muscles are placed in a Lineal fashion. Take the legs for example. The Quad and Hamstring (our “drive” muscles) are much larger by far than our Adductor muscles. We can never run sideways as fast or as powerfully as we can forwards.
The moment we vary from the Lineal path before us we exponentially lose power.
Pivotal Design
The above theory in no way though displaces the importance on Pivotal movement - as this is the primary rebalancing response and without this our Lineal design would have a major flaw - quite simply we would keep falling over.
Our support muscles must be kept in balance with our “drive” muscles or injury would be inevitable. As every time you tried to turn you would fall sideways. In fact all the smaller groups of muscles that make up our rebalancing responses are also responsible for holding our body together.
This is very apparent when athletes are clearly strong but a minor injury brings them down.
This type of weakness can also be responsible for such things as incontinence or the more serious fall of an older person cased by pelvic instability - which in some cases can lead to an early death due to blood clots in bone fractures.
The sideways action of a Pivotal machine is the most effective way of targeting these weak points in our design - but in my opinion would mainly fall into the “Therapy” mindset and should be treated with even more caution than Lineal programs. As correct positioning of a new client is much harder to judge on a Pivotal unit.
Conclusion
Both systems are valid but should be used for different purposes - not in competition with each other. The only reason I personally favour Lineal for use with the public at the moment is it’s ease of use. In fact the first machine I ever made was Pivotal - and I will be releasing one in the near future. I picture all good Studios, Gyms and Physio’s will have both types of machines and will also hopefully have the appropriate programs attached.
148 Comments
Complaints from Pivotal companies …..
I would like to add I do not write the rules. I just report on them. If you do not like these rules I suggest you take up religion and make a complaint to someone slightly higher up the ladder than myself.
I also tried to compile a few million years of evolutionary theory into a small artical so for those of you more educated folk please forgive my generalised comments. With only the subject of ” Workout ” VS ” Therapy ” in relation to muscle movement patterns being discussed so far.
Hello Lloyd,
Thanks for the explanation, short but clear!
For people like me in this field who is favour of Lineal mechanism, do not mean saying Pivotal does not work.
As you explained, Pivotal vibration plate has a value in trunk balance and proprioceptive training. However, for these type of therapeutic training, there are advanced but still economic alternative choices. In physiotherapy & rehab market, there are now electronic balance boards with computerized training programs (like playing tv games). These systems are fun to train with and give motivation for exercisers to keep doing the training programs. Pricewise, a electronic balance board costs between USD1,000.00 to USD2,500.00. You know how much a decent pivotal vibration plate like GALILEO costs in the market.
If I have to offer a training program for muscle strengthening and balance/proprioception training, I would choose to have a lineal vibration plate + a electronic balance board.
TC
- Jason
February 26th, 2007Hallo TC
Here in Greec the Galileo Fitness is about 7300 euros
and the Galileo Sport apout 8500 euros Hello Jason,
Yes, I know the market price of GALILEO.
This is also my point, if someone is aiming for mainly balance/proprioception training,a USD1,000.00 electronic balance board can do the job so why spending USD9,000.00 for a pivotal vibration plate.
Besides, you can still train balance/proprioception on a lineal vibration plate.
TC
- Jason
February 26th, 2007TC .
Thats a good point and if your thoughts are correct then you discovered a money saver invent .But Lets listen to Lloyd’ s Opinion
- Thomas
February 26th, 2007TC - Please don’t try and make the galileo sound like it is just a tool for balance and proprioception. Research has shown there are many more benefits to the Galileo system than the 2 you have metioned. Like Lloyd said they are both good but complex systems.
Putting one foot/hand/elbow on a Lineal unit , and the other on a stable platform will cause a Pivotal effect if you do not have access to a purpose built machine.
I would always favour a units especially designed for this complete action though.
I do not believe an electronic balance board would run the full gauntlet of what I would personally require of a Pivotal action.
Thomas,
I respect your opinion.
I am aware of the many positive studies on WBV were conducted with GALILEO. It is probably because GALILEO was the first commercial vibration plate and GALILEO generously provided their device for these stuides therefore GALILEO’s name was acknowledged.
I do not like pivotal vibration plate because I tried GALILEO in a few occasions. It is my first person’s experience.
However, if someone prefers pivotal, certainly GALILEO is the number one in its category. At least, it did not bring me “motion sickness” as the cheap pivotal plates did.
For anyone who has tried both pivotal and lineal vibration plates and still like pivotal, please speak out so that readers can learn from different angles.
For people who intend to buy or train with WBV, my suggestion is to try both mechanisms to find out the most suitable one for oneself.
TC
- Jason
February 28th, 2007To All
I dont know who read Lloyds post“Putting one foot/hand/elbow on a Lineal unit , and the other on a stable platform will cause a Pivotal effect if you do not have access to a purpose built machine.”
I think its one of the most important things ever posted in this forum . And believe me i followed this forum since its birth .
I suppose buying a good pivotal machine is the best but whith this trick i think someone can get real good results .
Thanks Lloyd
- Mery
March 1st, 2007hi all!
I have just to read the article, and I am one of those who likes more the pivotal or tilting training so I have a different point of view.
In the experiment above mentioned, to push since the front of since one side….. it is true that we are depredator kind of animal. The topic is that we use to attack; that’s why we have developed much more the power in the front side. But we are biped, that means that we support ourselves in two points, we use two legs and it is need the balance. When we try to avoid the push we use not just the mind muscles of our legs we use all of them.
Why? because we need the balance in our bodies just to stand. And also it’s true, that when they push you since one of your sides, in this aim to keep the balance, you are using a lot of more muscles, because is not just an issue from the legs, is from your trunk! you have to make use of your abdominal.
When you are walking, you legs go shifting and your body try to keep the balance, but makes work not just your legs, also your trunk! That is a direct effect of the pivotal or tilting movement!
In the other hand, with the vertical movement your body is jumping so hard, and it is not natural…, your muscles are working because they try to absorb this movement, they are not working with the movement… and, for me, this cannot be good for your body, it is being ‘attacked’ and your muscles try to ‘defend’ themselves; that’s the reason why use to be present the unpleasant feeling on your head.
Besides, the pivotal it is not something that concerns just to old people or to correct weak points. It is know that is not good to develop more some groups of muscles than others, it can causes damages, but to train weak points till the moment just brings more strengths.As I read, the difference already made like: the pivotal method for therapy uses and vertical for workout, is just the opinion and not a scientific or proved reality.
Besides, if the tilting is good for therapy… what is the therapy doing?? is just training the muscles for recover them, use to be in lower intensity, of course, but you can increase it to train in other levels.
Almost I will continue training my muscles with a movement that my body know how to control and also the doctors are using to recover the patients from serious injuries.Mery
- Mery
March 1st, 2007About the follow sentence: “Putting one foot/hand/elbow on a Lineal unit , and the other on a stable platform will cause a Pivotal effect if you do not have access to a purpose built machine.”
I really don’t believe it!
I would like to have more references than just one phrase post it. Because if you fix one leg on the vertical vibration and the other on a stable place…. I know that the effect movement is changing, but…. how is possible to get the same movement that tilting?? it is something that is not clear to me.
If you can explain it better I will appreciated it so much.Mery
- peter M
March 1st, 2007i’m sorry but this article really is not fair to be published because it is simply all wrong, i don’t know who wrote it and why, because really this shouldn’t be on a forum for people to get an objective view of vibration training.
THEN WHY PUBLISH SUCH AN ARTICLE THAT REALLY IS TOTALLY WAY OUT OF THE LINE!
i don’t care what people say or do, i work already years with vibration devices, i know the people the owners of the Maxuvibe, Powerplate, Vibrogym i have strong connections with the owner of Galileo the netherlands and please believe me on this. Vertical system is a substitute for the original system brought by Galileo. And i’m not saying pivotal system because also within these systems there are a lot of differences. The Galileo system and also Maxuvibe uses the correct system are the only systems in the world with medical certificates! The are also the only ones who did extended studies and researches (otherwise you don’t get those kind of certificates). Not to mention the frequencies! a pivotal system only for medical use… have you ever tried one a pivotal system at 30 HZ is by far more intensive training then a vertical system at 50 or 60 Hz! (those kind of frequencies are also way out of a human body’s limit the stretch reflex movements of the body can never get a good grip on it).
I told it before and i will do it again! Yes you can compare them it’s simple there is not a single fact in the world that can prove that a vertical system may measure itselfs with the Galileo or Maxuvibe systems.
Guus van der Meeren the big bos of Powerplate himself told me that in the beginning when vibrogym was powerplate (they later split up and powerplate begon for itselfs) they tried to make the Galileo system. But the couldn’t because of the patent and that’s why they decided to make the vertical system because they knew with their budget and superb marketing they would financially be a hughe succes!
That’s also the explanation why you have the differences between expensive vertical systems (it’s the marketing cost) and the hundreds of other factories who make vertical systems for low prices. Because building s vertical system is simple, you get an industrie engine (for example the one used in paint mixers, and then you put some rubbers in it, arrange the driven by an electric circuit and voila you have a vertical vibration plate!
Really i know a lot of people will try to come up with other arguments and stuff, i’m not intrested i don’t care about them, i have the feeling that some people really are here for the wrong reasons. But i do care about the fact that if you want to be objective then make sure you also really are!
I’ll explain the working of the pivotal system here under and publish a real list of differences between the 2 systems, this is from the orignal sites of Maxuvibe and Galileo and believe me these organisations are way to big to sell with false promotion stunts and marketing projects, they have all the doctors institutions evidence and researches in their hand:
When you stand on the Machine and the plate starts to tilt and dip your pelvis, what exactly happens in your body:
The movement of the Maxuvibe simulates a natural walking movement. Which makes the training logical for the human mind and body. It also gives a 100% physiological training method and reaches all up to the spinal and abdominal muscle groups, unlike training on the vertical vibration systems. The Maxuvibe causes stretch-reflexes” in the muscles, which cause muscle contractions from the legs up into the trunk. These reflexes are detached from the trainee’s intentions and are controlled by the spinal cord. The number of stretch-reflexes per second is controlled via the settable training frequency. By, for example, choosing 25 Hertz, there are 25 contraction cycles induced in each, flexor and extensor muscles, which sums up to a whole of 1500 cycles per minute!
i’m sorry the differences list didn’t fit in this window, i’ll ask the webmaster if he wants to publish it.
But i can give you some references from al the studies that have been done by Galileo and Maxuvibe. I’m sorry i don’t want to insult anybody here but i take these data a lot seriouser from proffesional doctors etc. then from people posting here:
P. Spitzenpfeil, et al; 4th Annual Congress of the European College of Sport Science (book of abstracts) 1999: 613
” Strength training with whole body vibrations - single case studies and time series analyses”J. Schwarzerl, et al; 4th Annual Congress of the European College of Sport Science (book of abstracts) 1999: 3
“Effects of vibration stimuli training on human damping behaviour at various vibration loads”J. Rittweger, et al; Clin. Physiology 2000; 20 (2), 134-142.
Acute effects of exhaustive vibration exerciseJ. Rittweger, et al; Osteoporosis Int. 8 suppl.3 (1998); 121.
Acute Physiological effects of training with tiltingvibration: first resultsG. Wilhelm, et al; Osteoporosis Int. 8 suppl.3 (1998); 121.
Evaluation of long term effects of tiltingvibration in a randomized controlled studyS.Haering, M.Hartard, M.Schlitter, et al
“Long Term effects of tiltingvibration - a new training device”M.Hartard, C.Kleinmond, C.Lammel, et al
“Recovery effects of tiltingvibration”M.Runge; J. Musculoskeletal interactions 2000 (1): 54-58
“Balance training and exercise in geriatric patients”O. Roessler, et al (Friedrich Schiller Universitaet Jena; unpublished data
“Wirkung mechanischer Stimuli mittels oszillierender interventionen durch tiltingvibration auf Muskelkraft und Knochendichte”M.Runge:
“Wenn Hochbetagte aus dem Leben fallen.”M. Runge; Ost-Sonderheft Mobilitaet im alter
“Gehen, Gehstorungen und Stuerze im Alter”C.Bosco, et al; Biol. Sport 15 (1998) 3; 157-164
“Adaptive responses of human skeletal muscle to vibration exposure”C.Bosco, et al; Clin. Physiol. 19 (1999) 2; 183-187
“The influence of whole body vibration on the mechanical behavior of skeletal muscle”C.Bosco, et al; Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 79 (1999); 306-311
“Influence of vibration on mechanical power and EMG activity in human arm flexor muscles”General (Whole Body) Vibration research;
T.Klyscz, C.Ritter-Schempp, et al; Hautarzt 48: 318-322; 1997
“Biomechanische Stimulationstherapie (BMS) zur physikalischen Behandlung des arthrogenen Stauungssyndroms”R. Weber; Leistungssport 1: 53-57; 1997
“Muskelstimulation durch Vibration”J. Mester, et al; J. Sciences in Med. & Sport (1999); 2 (3); 211-216
“Biological reaction to Vibration - implications for SportF. Seifriz, et al; 4th Annual Congress of the European College of Sport Science (book of abstracts) 1999: 88
” Influence of various whole body vibrations on body sway”C.Bosco, et al; Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 81 (2000); 449-454
“Hormonal responses to whole body vibration in man”U. Hoffmann, et al; XVIIth ISB Congress, Calgary (book of abstracts) 1999: 287
“Effects of vibration on muscle energy turnover”J.Flieger, et al; Calcified Tissue int. 63:510-514; 1998
“Mechanical stimulation in the form of vibration prevents postmenopausal bone loss in ovariectomized rats”T.Lundeberg, R.Nordemar, D.Ottoson; Pain 20: 25-44; 1984
“Pain alleviation by vibratory stimulation”T.Lundeberg, et al; Scand. J. Rehab. Med. 19 (1987); 153-158
Vibratory Stimulation compared to placebo in alleviation of painV.B.Issurin, D.G.Liebermann, G.Tenenbaum; Journal of sports sciences 12: 561-566; 1994
“Effect of vibratory stimulation training on maximal force and flexibility”V.B.Issurin, G.Tenenbaum; Journal of sports sciences 17: 177-182; 1999
“Acute and residual effects of vibratory stimulation on explosive strength in elite and amateur athletes”A.V. Zinkovsky, D.G.Arsenyev, V.V.Kuznetsov, et al; Abstract 10th conference of the ESB 1996
“Electro-vibrostimulation training and recuperating of human skeletal-muscular apparatus”V.B.Issurin, D.G.Liebermann, G.Tenenbaum
“Vibratory stimulation training: a new approach for developing strength and flexibility in athletes”B.J.Martin, H-S Park; Eur. Journal Applied Physiol. 75: 504-511; 1997
“Analysis of the tonic vibration reflex: influence of vibration variables on motor unit synchronisation and fatigue”Y. Usui, et al; J. Orthopaedic Research (1989) 7; 559-567.
Different effects of Mechanical Vibration on Bone Ingrowth into porous hydroxyapatite and Fracture Healing in a rabbit modelR.R. Tjandrawinata, et al; FASEB J. 11 (1997); 493 - 497.
Vibrational force alters mRNA expression in osteoblastsLancet (1992) 339; 1513-1514.
Comment on Vibration TherapyD.J. Olivieri, et al; Am. J. Physical Med. & Rehabil. (1989) 2 (68); 81-85
Increased skin temperature after Vibratory StimulationM. Falempin, et al; J. Appl. Physiology (1999) 87 (1); 3-9
Influence of brief daily tendon vibration on rat soleus muscle in non-weight bearing situationS.V. Chelomey ; 11th conference of the ESB, july 8-11 98, Toulouse, France
About the effect of artificial gravity arising due to the action of high frequency vibrations on the oscillation systemNovotec information:
Tilting vibration; Das Muskel AufbautrainingJ. Chris Fritton, et al; Annals of Biomed. Engineering 25 (1997); 831-839.
Whole-Body Vibration in the skeleton: vevelopment of a Resonance-based Testing Device.B. Samuelson, L.Jorfeldt, B.Ahlborg; Clinical physiology 9:21-25; 1989
“Influence of vibration on endurance of maximal isometric contraction”W.Rohmert, et al; Eur. Journal Applied Physiol. 59: 243-248; 1989
“Effects of vibration on arm and schoulder muscles in three body postures”Y. Nakagawa, et al; Eur. Journal Applied Physiol. 59: 239- 242; 1989
“Effect of disuse on ultrastructure of the achilles tendon in rats”H. Schiessl, J. Willnecker; Stratec Medizintechnik GmbH, Pforzheim:
New Insights about the Relationship between Bone Strength and Muscle Strength,H. Schiessl, H.M.Frost, W.S.S. Jee / Bone 22 (1):1-6; 1998 :
“Estrogen and Bone-Muscle Strength and Mass Relationships”O.Louis, F.Boulpaep, J.Willnecker, P. Van den Winkel, M.Osteaux; Bone 16(3): 375-379; 1995
“Cortical mineral content of the radius assessed by peripheral QCT predicts compressive strength on biomechanical testing”M.Runge
“Die multifaktorielle Pathogenese von GehstØrungen, Stòrzen und Hòftfrakturen im Alter”H. Etzrodt
“Training gegen Knochenschwund”A.Heinonen, P.Kannus, et al; Journal of Bone and mineral research 14(1): 125-128; 1999
“Good maintenance of high-impact activity-induced bone gain by voluntairy, unsupervised exercise”C. Bosco; Leistungssport 2; 1997
“Zum Verh¬ltnis von Muskelkraft und Testosteron aus der Sicht der Trainings”W. Oosterhuis; Scriptie FBW
“Cumulatieve trauma disorders: lengteverandering in pezen als basis voor het bepalen van cumulatief trauma binnen arbeidssituaties”E.Cafarelli, et al; Int. Journal of sports medicin 11(6): 474-478; 1990
“Vibratory massage and short-term recovery from muscular fatigue”F. Hefti, T.M. Stoll; Orthop¬ de (1995) 24; 237-245.
Heilung von Ligamenten und SehnenC.S. Enwemeka; Physical Therapy (1989) 10 (69); 816-825.
Inflammation, Cellularity, and Fibrillogenesis in Regenerating Tendon; implications for Tendon RehabilitationL.E. Necking, et al; Scand. J. Plast. Reconstr. Hand Surg. (1996) 30; 99-103
Skeletal Muscle Changes after short term vibration
D.Jones, J. Vander Sloten; 11th conference of the ESB, july 8-11 98, Toulouse, France
Osteoblasts respond to amplitude, direction, and type of deformation in cultureE.C. Rhodes, et al; Br. J. Sports Med. 34 (2000); 18-22
Effects of one year of resistance training on the relation between muscular strength and bone density in elderly womenJ.Y. Margulies, et al; J. Bone Joint Surg. 68-A (1986) 7; 1090-1093
Effects of intense physical activity on the bone-mineral content in the lower limbs of young adultsD. Jones, J. Vander Sloten; Book of abstracts, 11th conference of the ESB, July 8-11 (1998), Toulouse France
Osteoblasts respond to amplitude; direction and type of deformation in culture
S.V. Chelomey; Book of abstracts, 11th conference of the ESB, July 8-11 (1998), Toulouse France
About the effect of artificial gravity arising due to the action of high frequency vibrations on the oscillation systemP. Burroughs, L.E. Dahners; Am. J. Sp. Med. 18 (1990) 4; 376-378
The effect of enforced exercise on the healing of ligament injuries - Nick Morris
March 1st, 2007Peter,
The most recent scientific reference you name is 2000, and the majority are late 80’s and 90’s. What has been going on?
Has technology evolved past this initial level of investigation into WBV?
You mention the incredible scientific backing of the your 2 highlighted companies - Maxuvibe and Galileo - yet no recent scientific studies. - Thomas
March 1st, 2007I’m sure there are lots of recent research on the Galileo. I have just read 2. One from 2005 and the other 2006. Ive got a feeling Peter will be back with lots more.
To Mery,
I am neither biomechanic engineer nor scientist, I just try to use common sense to understand different studies and theories.
“Pivotal mechanism tells us this is the way of our gait motion; and therefore it is more friendly to our skeleton and more effective in training muscle coordination for balance than vertical vibration mechanism.”
My question is how fast can we walk or run, left & right; left & right ….. can we do it in speed of 30 cycles per second (30 Hz)? Obviously NO. So, what happens when a pivotal vibration plate stimulates us in a speed exceeding our biomechanic system can respond, all of our involved muscles in both left and right sides get excited and tensed up simultaneously. If this is the case, pivotal or lineal becomes irrelevant.
You referred vertical vibration mechanism as an “attack” to our body and our muscles try to “defense”. Let’s speak in your language, yes, the stimulation triggers our defensive response by increasing muscle mass and bone density to combat this “attack”. But what’s wrong with it, isn’t it part of the reasons for vibration training or even in conventional physical training?
Concerning the unpleasant feeling to the head, a qualified instructor would guide the exerciser to bend knees, lift heels to reduce the vibration transmission. In practice, we find almost all exercisers can quickly and easily adapt to this feeling and in my experience no exerciser got sick from it. Contrarily, a poor pivotal plate will cause dizzy and make people really sick for motion sickness.
For advanced level of balance training on a vertical vibration plate, I would suggest standing on vibration plate with single leg and the other side just slightly lifts up in air; and then change sides for another session. This is the same way that physiotherapists will teach elderly to train balance and proprioception on floor conventionally. The vibration plate just means to increase the difficulty to enhance the effect and result. Of course, exerciser’s hands should be placed close to the handle of device so that one can grip on when balance is off and tends to fall.
To Peter M,
You said other manufacturers have to make lineal mechanism because they could not make pivotal mechanism to avoid infringing GALILEO’s patent; and pivotal mechanism is more difficult to produce.
I see a totally opposite picture ….
Firstly, if pivotal mechanism is truly protected by patent, there would not be so many pivotal vibration plates in the market.
Secondly, almost all cheap China-made vibration training devices use pivotal mechanism, there is none of them in vertical vibration mechanism. So, you tell me which mechanism is easier and cheaper to produce.
To my knowledge, making a vibration plate to produce pure vertical vibration is not big task. Most high quality vertical vibration plates are assembled with two oscillators and 4 to 6 suspensors. You need good craftsmanship, good quality components and high standard of quality check in order to assure a almost pure vertical vibration motion. Otherwise, the plate would shake in all direction and unable to obtain high EMG activities.
TC
- Erik
March 1st, 2007Mery, Peter M, Lloyd
I want a definition of what a pivotal vibration device is.
Is it droven by motorvibrators like many of the linear units, or is the tilting movement produced by another method?
Is the amplitude always as high as 12 mm and the hz rate below 30 hz?
Correction in the last paragraph of my last response…
“To my knowlegde, making a vibration plate to produce pure vertical vibration IS A BIG TASK. ……..”
TC
- Thomas
March 1st, 2007The cheap pivotal systems on the market feel nothing like Galileo and I’m guessing do not breach the patent design.
- Pete
March 1st, 2007Hi Lloyd,
I have read your comparison between th different systems with great interest and also see a lot of other comments. I would like to review these findings from perhaps a different perspective. Now please remember that I have NOT have any experience of any of the training (except for a demo of 20 minutes or so) of any of the systems. My comments and views are only as a potential home user since there is no way to trial any of the systems where I live.
Now looking at the different systems I am only considering the different systems such as the more serious units, such as power plate, galileo, vibro gym etc, that are sold in Europe. I am really thinking of lineal vs pivotal in the spirit of this site.
I have been looking at the different training positions that are published on the net for the different platforms (not endorsing them in any way, and I have not seen any of yours) and also some comments by Lloyd and others. I have looked at this from an engineers point of view.
First of all I need to establish, that I think, after reading all of the material, that vibration to the head as well as inner organs need to be avoided. I have looked at some of the excercise suggestions where people are lying, sitting or resting their backs or their stomachs on the platforms! THAT in my view is DEADLY. You should not allow anything to shake your inner organs so violently in my mind.
Now to so some comparison of the different systems. If Lloyd is correct that putting one foot on a stable platform and the other on a vibrating platform is equal to a pivotal platform, then why the difference in allowed frequencies?
In the Pivotal platforms it seems frequencies of lower than 30 Hz are god while in Linear platforms above 35Hz are good????? Why the difference???
Also I belive that a pivotal platform, well designed, is capable of really giving the correct frequencies at all amplitudes. So what you set is what you get!
Now for linear designs I think they are targetted at a certain body weight to give the desired amplitude of 2 or 4 mm as stated. What happens if the designed weight is 70 kgs and the person that uses the equipment is 95 kgs??? I guess the amplitudes will reduce because of the rubber mountings but the frequency will remain??? Am I correct??? I know that some of the manufacturers state that the platform MUST not be started without anybody standing on it! ( I guess it would shake to bits!)
I can understand the difference between the systems when just standing on the units with straight legs. (which I gueess you should never ever do). The Linear unit will shake you up and down including your brain (which I think needs to be an absolute NO-NO). A pivotal will move your hips and dampen any transmission to the brain I would have thought. The latter in my mind would be safer.
Now for the difference of Pivotal against Linear.
If using excercises such as a squat or a deep squat I believe the difference will be minimal or not existing. We are now taking all of the vibration and dampening in our leg muscles and nothing should be transferred to the brain. Or any other vital interna organs. (Power Plate warned me to stand with straight legs on the platform when I tried it). Anyone disagrees???Now for the Upper Body.
I have seen a lot of different postions using straps etc. I believe they are complete and utterly USELESS. Why? Well I think the straps etc. stretch so much during the vibrtion training that they have NO effects what so ever. If any of you out there are sailors you know how hard you will have to tune your rig to let it stay in place. ( Several thousands of Newtons) If you need a to have any straps etc I guess they will have to be made of sold steel rods to be effective. Or else you would need to put so much pressure on them that you would lift the platform off the grounds many times over to be in the non stretch section. This is why I have discounted any excercise with straps etc.I see that Lloyd states that his machines have solid vibrating bars. If they move in the different direction of the platform I can see that it would be really useful. Think about all of these straps made of leather or woven materials, how usefule are they?? I also noted one website where a guy of approx. 180 cms had starps on a pivotal machine! Two meters of straps, what dampening would that give. I think he could just as well have screwed these down on the floor and tried to pull them out. I think this is similar in excercise to the 1960’s when a Bullworker was popular. I see no difference to that one. Can not remember if it was called isometric training???
So for the upper body as well as the lower body really the only excercises that are relevant, if you do not have solid bars or straps, are the excercises that involve flexing the muscles? Right
Now let us look at some of these excercises:
Comparing Pivotal and Linear:
Squats would be the same ( narrow, deep, wide etc)
Lunge would be the same
Calf rise would be the same
Push-ups would be the same
Pelvic Bridge would be the same
Triceps dip would be the same
Shoulder press would be the same
Push up would be the same.All of benefit of excercises would not really depend on a movement that is up and down ( dependent solely on the weight of the person) or a pivotal movement. Am I right?? Consider tha differnce with a Linear unit when doing full weight compared to just the upper body? The unit would rattle out of proportion!!!
Now for me the only question that remais is the difference of the frequencies??
Why would below 30 Hz be ok for Pivotal
when above 35 Hz is recommended for Linear??I personally think that possibly the difference is due to the energy created by moving you. Is it so that we need to look at the TRUE amplitude (considering body weights) multiplied by the frequency some how to get the real facts.
As outlined above I do not believe that the difference in actaul postions are that great. Nor is the difference between the different systems.
If all of what I have read on this forum is correct than Pivotal platforms are the only one to be considered. They would give predictable movements and benefits. (if they are designed correctly to maintain the amplitudes over the complete frequency rance of course)
Hope I can get some response
BR
Pete
There is no patient design being actively protected by anybody in the world of Vibration Training to date. And considering the guys who actually invented all this technology are dead. Thats the way it should stay.
Or you all risk looking like the jerkoff who tried to Trademark Pilates name 22 years after the poor guy was dead.
And I believe your critisism of my artical is slightly off. As I do not have ulterior motives for writing that material. What would they be anyway ?
I refuse to sell my machines to the public.
I have designed over 25 units , some are Pivotal some are Lineal.
I have my own factory.
With my own studio network.If anything wouldnt it be better to keep all this info to myself ?
It was a simple matter of the marketers of both systems either didnt have the knowledge to articulate the difference to Joe public , or they didnt want anybody to know.
Either way I just tried to fixed it.
I will not go into it here , but the Physics alone of the two systems are so far apart it is like comparing walking on an un-even surface with sprinting on a Mondo track.
The fact this has not been brought to light by the so called “experts” and those involved in the industry for years , leaves me highly suspicious of THEIR motives.
What say you readers. Am I off the mark ?
Note:
In my last post I was being sarcastic when I suggested the marketers did not want the public to know about the main differences in the 2 systems. I wish that was the cause.After 2 years of asking all major players I came to the conclusion they simply didn’t know.
The main cause was most studies were done with only marketing in mind ( Universities hard up for grants will agree to anything ) , so only one unit was supplied for testing , and both sides have been guilty of this practice.
A true study would involve…
(a) A Stable platform ( placebo )
(b) A Pivotal platform.
(c) A Lineal platform.(d) 3 groups of people.
A 190 day trial would be needed as this is the rate of hard cell/tissue turnover. Using BCA machines with no less than a 4 bioelectrical impedance test to record changes.
This study will be done. But not until the VTA is up and running. So it can overseen by a full range of competing companies.
SAFETY…..
To answer the question about the Hz / Amplitude / Safety concerns of both Pivotal and Lineal I will be writing another artical. It will take nothing less than that to explain the basics.
- peter M
March 2nd, 2007it’s simple if you want recent studies, go to the official site of galileo you can download them all, also very recent ones!
But that not allone, i think that if you look at the U.S.A. where almost every professional basketball team for example the boston celtics, miami heat, orlando heat,philidelphia 76er,Phoenix suns, orlando raptors works with a pivolat system? why is it that a majority of al profesional footbal teams in europe like AC Milan, Tottenham hotspurs, psv Eindhoven, vitesse etc… work with a pivolat system? great sportsmen over all the world like Armstrong work with pivolat systems. This is a list with no end, i think that also proves that serious sportsmen only consider a pivotal system and that the vertical system only come up with celebrities for promotional actions.
I’ll give you some real differences between the 2 systems.
First off all a pivotal system works several times more intensively than the vertical system, because the large movement (amplitude) range is from 0 through 12mm. The vertical system mainly works with 4mm max.
A pivolat has Several training options thats why it’s also suitable for rehabilitation, medical use, massage options, sportstraining, eldery people.:
5 / 10 Hz Balance / Coordination
10/18 Hz Massage / Blood Circulation
18/30 Hz Muscle Tension (Contraction)Balance/Coordination exercise is not possible with the vertical system. Massage/blood circulation not maximal because of the high frequencies. Muscle tension (contraction) through too high of a frequency not effective.
a good pivolat system is built low to the ground for better and more comfortable execution of ground exercises. Vertical systems are all All built high off the ground, therefore less comfortably or even impossible at ground exercises.
Damping of training takes place in the muscles, therefore minimal to zero pressure in the head. (Tilting vibration shown to have 20 times higher damping then the vertical system). This is because of the natural movement. Because the vertical system uses high frequencies which the body cannot contain/process, there arises pressure (vibration) in the head. This is not a very pleasant sensation. they try to make it comfortable with all these different training positions but it still always will be far less comfortable then a pivotal system.
Pivotal systems come with Accessories such as straps, massage belt, and comfort pillow can be attached on the moving plate. Via the large amplitude all are very usable and effective. Thanks to this you can also do a lot more excersises and make massage excersises really comfortable. Some vertical systems do offer accessories but the system’s inherently small amplitude offers minimal results with accessory exercises.
These are just a few benefits crossing my mind. And again i sell both machines i don’t have any sales preference. I only don’t understand why people are still wondering its 100% clear! there is no discussion possible at the current situation.
If you want the best and you want quality you go for Galileo or Maxuvibe.
If you want image and use your device to attracked customers to your studio, you use Powerplate
If you don’t want to spend a lot of money but still work with vibration devices then go for example a body coach, but there are several more who provide a decent vertical movement for a lower price.
But at the end the real advise i would give you is don’t let yourself be convinced by talks from other people or salesmen, If you’re interested in buying a high price top product go and try for yourself try all the vertical systems in the world to make yourself sure, then go to either a maxuvibe or galileo dealer and try one of those devices you’ll be convinced in a few minutes. Or go and try other pivotal systems like sismo you will also notice a big difference in quality and movement.
Really guys let the machines convince you and not the talks. I know it, like i say i tryed already a lot ofdevices and i do shows all over europe i worked with a lot of vibration factory’s. The only system that makes my curious is the turbosonic device that’s one i haven’t tested yet but i’ll upcoming march at the IHRSA show.
Seriously the only reason to buy a vertical system is the price, because the vertical systems are lower in price. but also a lot less functionality and effictivity compared to the REAL pivolat systems.
- peter M
March 2nd, 2007To Lloyd
I didn’t want to insult your article, but i simply don’t agree with a lot of it. And if you really do have your own factory and build so many vibration devices then i would like to know where it’s located because it’s or in asia or you make me curious because i know really a lot of them but none makes so many different devices. But i don’t question you and yes you’re right i surerly respect the fact that you never mention any brands or yourself, and i’m looking forward to your posts because you do bring a lot of knoledge in here but we can’t always agree and this is one of those cases
“i quote this from you:
A true study would involve…(a) A Stable platform ( placebo )
(b) A Pivotal platform.
(c) A Lineal platform.(d) 3 groups of people.
A 190 day trial would be needed as this is the rate of hard cell/tissue turnover. Using BCA machines with no less than a 4 bioelectrical impedance test to record changes.
This study will be done. But not until the VTA is up and running. So it can overseen by a full range of competing companies.”
I Agree with this and from my own experience and my close cooperation with medical institution i already know what would be the result. And thats what i would like to see also that some points would be made clear and that indeed the marketeers cannot give so much confusion anymore.
About the patent! I can guarantee you that if you copy the Maxuvibe or the Galileo you’ll be suited within a instant. The many pivotal systems you are talking about are all rubbish some are even dangerous because the dip and tilt to high it really feels dangerous to your pelvis. And i don’t use those names for any commercial reasons i simply name them because the are in my experiences and believe by far the 2 best plates available in this world. and you cannot find a single pivotal system in the world that can works the same.
- Jason
March 2nd, 2007Hallo Peter M
I do agree with some of your comments . But you say that that the pivotal is better than lineal .
Better at which section ? Training ? , Rehab ?, Aesthetics ? .You’re correct when you say that less head vibration produced with pivotal , but this has a result of less hormone production from the brain .
And something else , a good pivotal machine can offer less time until plateau than a good lineal .
With the knowledge i got from this forum i believe that pivotal is better for therapy/rehabilisation and lineal for training .
Regards
Peter M…
Firstly lets say I am surprised to see you back . Last time you where here you made some very bold statements that turned out to be false , and indicated you knew nothing of this industry and its real background.I sent you off to do some homework.
Point…….
My factory is in New Zealand. And you would know this if you spent half the time doing your homework/research as you do reading your own advertising material.PLEASE NOTE:
Not one of the research papers you commented on was tested alongside a reputable Lineal unit. And a Placebo unit. With the outcome compared. Why not ?6 years is a very long time to be in an industry yourself and not want to even know the real differences dont you think ?
I will state now. The tests are coming like it or not. So you have a small amount of time to start marketing ethically and in a manor that helps the consumer make an educated choice.
My advice is to take me seriously.
- Thomas
March 2nd, 2007I have to disagree with you Lloyd. Reading through Peters comments you can see he has a background in this area and Im interested in his points, just like I’m interested in yours. It’s good to have debates in this complex area. What I don’t like is marketers coming on here and saying things like ‘thank you hypergravity’ you changed my life!
- Mery
March 2nd, 2007Hi!
Well, TC:
I am not an expert in human motion and of course I cannot say how fast we can run in our max. capacity! but I can tell you that is something that the tilting plates had researched, and exist the article where is said that the MAXIMUM that the human body can absorb is the 35Hz!!
Let me say that the Hz are explaining the contractions of the muscles per second! so 35 times per second! is quite a lot, but doesn’t seem to me as dangerous as can be 60Hz!! don’t? and it is the motion that the vertical systems are using!
When I used ‘attack’ was because I mean the muscles cannot work with that! They don’t understand the movement and they try to keep it away from other organs that can suffer with this movement, for me it’s not good!
With the tilting movement, really we are not attacking anything because they can control the movement, they know how to act! And any other organ is affected out of the muscles involved. So they are not attack! They are working! Is different! For me the tilting and the conventional methods are developing the muscles make them work with their movements.
So if you want to adapt yourself to the unpleased vibration in your head, is op to you, I don’t suffer them! Why? Because my muscles avoid it!
And of course the cheaper machines can be dangerous, but not jus for the tilting! Also you are running with your own risk when you buy a cheap vertical system!To Erik,
To know the differences between those motions you have to thing in that:
the vertical system is jumping really fast you are shaking, you cannot even speak and you can notice that your body is stock, cannot react to it!
The tilting, just thing a long table with a support point in the middle.
So the working movement is going to be focus in your hips, it will move it and your muscles will work as normal, like if you are walking, to keep you straight.
The amplitude is since 0-12mm in the tilting. It is related with the movement it will cause to your hips.
And the Hz is related with the speed. - Mery
March 2nd, 2007And I would like to say to those that makes sure that the tilting is good for rehabilitation … but not for training, in what they base on?
As I know, the vertical system cannot be use for medical uses, and for the massage they are not as effective as they should, so here the tilting is winning.
For the training, who said that the tilting is not training? Training is all that makes your muscles work! and tilting is doing that! the rehabilitation is doing that also, BUT IN A REALLY LOWER Hz, if you want to train more intensively, just up the Hz!!! - Mery
March 2nd, 2007Sorry, in the previous one there is something missing…
TC:
I am not an expert in human motion and of course I cannot say how fast we can run in our max. capacity! but I can tell you that is something that the tilting plates had researched, and exist the article where is said that the MAXIMUM that the human body can absorb is the 35Hz!!
Let me say that the Hz are explaining the contractions of the muscles per second! so 35 times per second! is quite a lot, but doesn’t seem to me as dangerous as can be 60Hz!! don’t? and it is the motion that the vertical systems are using!
When I used ‘attack’ was because I mean the muscles cannot work with that! They don’t understand the movement and they try to keep it away from other organs that can suffer with this movement, for me it’s not good!
With the tilting movement, really we are not attacking anything because they can control the movement, they know how to act! And any other organ is affected out of the muscles involved. So they are not attack! They are working! Is different! For me the tilting and the conventional methods are developing the muscles make them work with their movements.
So if you want to adapt yourself to the unpleased vibration in your head, is op to you, I don’t suffer them! Why? Because my muscles avoid it!
And of course the cheaper machines can be dangerous, but not jus for the tilting! Also you are running with your own risk when you buy a cheap vertical system!To Erik,
To know the differences between those motions you have to thing in that:
the vertical system is jumping really fast you are shaking, you cannot even speak and you can notice that your body is stock, cannot react to it!
The tilting, just thing a long table with a support point in the middle.
So the working movement is going to be focus in your hips, it will move it and your muscles will work as normal, like if you are walking, to keep you straight.
The amplitude is since 0-12mm in the tilting. It is related with the movement it will cause to your hips.
And the Hz is related with the speed. - peter M
March 2nd, 2007to lloyd,
my statements weren’t false i was very right you just found an excuse an escape route by bringing up a device out of the early nineties what has nothing do do with vibration training as we know it today! but the thing that the beginning of vibration training started with the pivotal system is stil the correct one! I simply have no interest to combat on personal attacks this is about vibration training in general.
And why make such a statement that i only read my own advertisment material. I just think its really strange that somebody who obivislious spends enough time in vibration training like you, still always keeps praising systems that in my opinion really aren’t that great! is that maybe because you own a lot of those devices and even you don’t call them by names if your factory make’s 25 of them then there still is a big change they will en up with you?
I don’t mean this seriously, because i do believe your intentions are good, i just want to give an example that it’s easy to kick somebody down.
But anyway this is not the discussion i want or anybody wants here, this is about vibration training and not about attacking another person because he doesn’t stroke with your idea’s!
But still your last mail doesn’t makes sence at all! and about the test? they should scare me?
why? first of all i’m not somebody who ownes a factory or brand, i’m active in the fitness world and i do business with all topbrands from Life fitness to vision fitness, to tuffstuff, to Technogym etc etc. I told you before on the vibration training i do business with Maxuvibe, Galileo, Vibrogym, and in some occasions even bodycoach. So i do sell both systems i don’t care what the test will say because i already know!
@Thomas You’re right i’m no messias surely not but i’m very confident about the things i’m saying, and i just think people should always try it for themselves.
The reason i’m doing this is because we have sold over hundreds of vibration devices and everybody who comes to my office we let them feel the differences between the systems and like i say i really 99% does like the pivotal system better then the vertical, only the low price vertical systems do we sell sometimes because of the budget some people do have.@jason
why i think the pivotal system is better, easy because on the part of rehabilitation, massage, coordination the Correct pivotal systems are the only one to do those one properly, they are also the only one who have medical certificates and about the training, a training on the pivotal system at his max just feels better it feels more intensivly so i have to see it beats the vertical system in 3 ways!
The less vibration in the head with the pivotal system is because the movement itselfs, the body simply reacts different on it because it makes the pelvis dip and tilt like you’re walking and you’re body is designed to make such a movement so it’s easy for your body to handle this movement. When you’re walking or running it also doesn’t gives you a uncomfortable feeling in the head.
And what exactly do you mean with this question:
And something else , a good pivotal machine can offer less time until plateau than a good lineal?.
- Nick Morris
March 2nd, 2007To throw something further into the mix of this lively discussion:
· Humans are designed to predominantly “work” in a true lineal, vertical plane ie. the effect of gravity.
· Hence our greatest volume and potency of receptors are in a vertical plane
· 95% of all scusceufsl atocin is sbocunscuios.
· Hence the key to performance improvement is involuntary reaction.
· Humans are locomotive organism’s, hence we are most receptive to kinetic energy.
· Humans are a mass of trillions of cells oscillating at a frequency. The frequency results in your present condition
· Perhaps the key to WBV is the application of kinetic energy at specific frequencies to effect a series of involuntary reactions in your body.
· WBV is a re-patterning of your CNS. The most effective WBV ensures this in the most efficient manner. - Jason
March 2nd, 2007Peter M
Believe me i know very well how the pivotal works (Thanks Lloyd) , and i tried Galileo Sport and Maxuvibe .
They are great machines (as you and i told) for rehabilitation, massage, coordination . But for training purposes better is Lineal and i do not want some research to prove that ,because i have personal experience .
Lets speak clear , (almost) none of us would spent 10000 $ for an excellent rehabilitation, massage and coordination machine (pivotal) but everybody would chose a great training machine (lineal) . And this thought is very simple . A man who is training himself 90% needs training and 10% needs rehabilitation and massage . And when he needs rehabilitation and massage can go to his physiotherapist or do that (not so good actually) with his reliable lineal in his home .To your question, i mean when someone is training on a good linear machine he will plateau after much more time than doing this with a good pivotal .
King Regards
- Thomas
March 2nd, 2007Jason you are talking as though the Galileo cannot be used for training. This is simply untrue.
- Jason
March 2nd, 2007No i didn’t say exactly that Thomas.
I said that Galileo is Great for rehabilitation, massage and coordination .
Galileo is able for training but not so good as a good lineal machine .
And at the opposite i belive a good lineal machine is not so good at rehabilitation, massage and coordination but is much better for training .And lineal vibration produces much more “good” hormones because of the head vibrations .
So when you chose to buy a machine its good to clear in your mind what do you exactly need .
Hope this helps
- mike Hair
March 2nd, 2007Peter M..
I understand what you are saying when it comes to the head vibration on a lineal machine as i note you deal with vibrogym, i also have a couple of them and find they can be a bit harsh if your posture is not correct, but if you ever get the chance to try one of Lloyd Shaws machines you would find he has fixed this problem, A total ass whooping without the vibration in the head.
Unless you can access Lloyds machines i think it is unfair to compare lineal to pivotal, as you are working with an inferior product.Regards
Mike DID ANYONE EVEN READ MY ARTICAL ?
It is not a competition between Pivatol and Lineal. And only a marketer would have motive to suggest it is.
I was speaking from the point of how a primate is designed to function. This is not my opinion , it is a design feature we must all work around.
If you have a problem with it , I suggest you complain to a higher power , sorry thats not my department.
Peter M….( full name appreciated next post )
my opinion of you is only in relation to your past posts. At the moment I view you as part of the problem , not the solution. It is up to you to show us all in your future posts this indeed is not the case.
- Jason
March 3rd, 2007Peter M
I have tried once the Vibrogym and i am not working on it .
Thank god the lineal vibrations pruduced not only by the Vibrogym .And as i told you Lineal and Pivotal are NOT COMPETITIVE but doing diggerent jobs. Your “PIVOTAL DOES ALL” opinion is definately wrong .
Regards
- Thomas
March 3rd, 2007Is there a site administrator on this site? Anyone who comes on here and gives a different opinion to Lloyd just gets a personal attack. I’m fed up with this. Peter M obviously has some good points and we should be able to listen to various opinions and not just Lloyds and his followers. I see Jason has been on here a short while and is alrady sounding like Lloyd. This site started off really good and is now becoming petty. It’s going to get to the point where any educated person will stay away and look for a more independent blog, or just do their own research. Debate should be encouraged and not hindered by personal attacks. If this site has a connection with vibratrain or Lloyd he should make it known on he front page and not market it like a independent blog. I am also fed up of hearing Lloyd say ‘I do not sell these systems, I am not a marketer’, so in other words you can trust me!
Lloyd at the end of the day you own a business and you are trying to sell your franchise all over the world(I’ve just checked out your website). You are not independent.
Thomas…
(a) This site is in no way connected with my company. And I never try to sell my studio network here.(b) Debate is always welcome , but just repeating your own marketing will only bring criticism. I believe this has been made clear a number of times even by the site administrator. Some are just not very fast at learning this , as I believe it is all they know.
(c) No personal attacks have been made. I am just very vocal and straight up about my opinion of unethical marketers.
So do this at your own risk.
Maybe you should ask yourself a relevant question. If Peter M’s an ethical trader who’s concerns for the public are real , by his own admission he has been in the industry for 6+ years. But never once in all those years spoken out against Power-Plates behaviour.
Why is this ?
There are only a few reasons in my experience someone keeps quite about such things. None of them are good.To all….
Both Thomas and Peter T have previously been on here claiming Pivotal is the ONLY way to go. And no other system can work. And even going as far as embellishing its history.See here…. http://www.vibrationtraining.net/2006/11/which-vibration-machine/comment-page-7/#comments
Also why is it neither of them will attach their real names to statements they make.
February 25th, 2007
This artical may be short and simplistic but I hope it covers all the major concerns and differences of both systems.
I am hoping some of you are now understanding the zoological aspects of the cause/effect/cause… side of Vibration Training. Remember this is not exercise per-say you are enticing a response. Which has hidden factors.
I will also be writing a small piece soon on the proper Hz settings than can be used safely for both units.