Which Vibration Machine?
Doc asks:
I am in the process of setting up a weight and life style disease management center. I would appreciate if anybody could help me make a choice out of Galileo and Turbosonic. Please explain why the machine you choose is better. This could mean a lot to me because I have never used any WBV machine. I am really counting on your opinion.
Written by Lloyd Shaw on November 15th, 2006
683 Comments
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Even the lightest vibration will increase bone mass and increase circulation in all connecting tissue. Simple handheld tools have been shown to do this. As it exites the bone cells and can cause an anabolic effect and vibration is well known to attract blood flow.
Juvent uses very light vibration and the locked legged stance to transfer as much energy through the skeletal structure as possable .
Note: No unit needs high amplitudes or magnitudes for basic therapy values. But stimulation is not activation.
Juvent do not claim it has an anabolic effect on muscle so it cant cause weight loss.
I hope you guys can follow this….
The obesity tests by C.Rubin were done on mice. With the platform set a 0.02mm @ 90Hz producing 0.23g
But remember the mouse is only 25mm tall so the 0.02mm is the equivalent of 1.44mm on a person 1800mm tall (6ft)
Those mice where actually receiving our equivalent of 16.6g rms ( 23g peak ).
Bet they forgot to mention that.
16.6g shit Lloyd i think i just seen the blood rush past my eyeballs, poor mice.
- Tim
June 20th, 2008Philippa, when I asked HyperGravity for the shipping cost, I was surprised to get: “You sound pretty talented to call FedEx and ask them or anybody else for Air freight quote.”
- Erik
June 20th, 2008Lloyd,
Are you saying that for to reach the anabolic effect in the muscles we need devices with higher gravity force than Juvent platform can produce, but for basic therapy, as for example lymphatic drainage, hormone balancing, bone mineral density, improvement in balance and posture, increase in flexibility and reduction in pain and fatigue, it´s enough with smaller, low amplitude devices.
Think of it this way.
Physio exercises are quite often identical to workout poses , just minus the pressure. A physio will always tell you to “train” up a body part once the basic healing is completed.
If people want a body composition change , that is training not therapy.
The same rules apply.
Mike…
The HyperGravitys you have on 50Hz/High do 14.23g
And you dont get hurt doing that , so its not as extreme as it sounds.
- Erik
June 20th, 2008My point is:
Can we be sure about there is no muscle-training effect from a small simple low amplitude device? If the signal can stimulate bonecells so why not the muscle cell?
This is from Juvent Medica Inc,
“While initial research demonstrated that the DMT (Dynamic Motion Therapy)signals had an anabolic effect by increasing both bone quality and quantity, it was also observed that, in addition, these signals were stimulating increased muscle contractions leading to increased muscle mass and strength which resulted in improved postural stance and balance”
Bone and muscle are such different tissue that the signal should not be identical for both.
Creating a light myotatic reflex in the muscle via vibration and combining that with a light rebalancing effect hence causing a contraction with some pressure , should give a response.
But the increased mass involved would be so small I doubt a BCA test would even show it up.
They may be just concluding that improved posture was a result of building muscle , which would basically be correct. But any such gains would plateau .
C.Rubin has been testing High Fq Low Magnitude vibration since the late 1970’s and I have never heard of significant muscle gain in any of the studies released.
- Philippa
June 21st, 2008Wow!!! I’ve just had a very nice man from Vibrogym come to give me a demo. So this is what a real vibration trainer feels like! All I can say is Powerplate Shmawerplate! There is just no comparison. Poses I could hold easily for 1min on the highest power plate setting I could hardly hold for 10 seconds on the highest setting of this. Am still looking at fitvibe and bodyshaker and still wanting the Hypergravity but wish there was support in UK. Very impressed with the whole Vibrogym service so far. Thanks for all the advice given - this is such a helpful site - the only place I’ve found to get decent info on Vibration Training (other than your site of course Lloyd!)
Glad we could help you.
And in doing so spread the idea of “real” vibration training.
Make sure you spread the word.
- Tim
June 21st, 2008That´s great news, Philippa!
What machine(s) did you try?
Hi Erik,
I spoke with Josh Hayon regarding the 4 guys on the gym-o-vibe, this plate is rated to 500 lbs. As a demonstration, he had four men stand on the plate, (the exact total weight of each man is unknown, but it is more than safe to say they were all over 150lbs each), the plate showed no operational differences in the amplitude running with 4 men, compared to 1. Frequency actually started to drop off after 800lbs of loading.
With the plate max rating at 500 lbs we can safely say our plates do not loose amplitude with loading up to 500lbs.
- Keith
June 21st, 2008Tim and Others
When I first heard about vibration training and then found this blog I asked a lot of questions about various machines and was pleasantly surprised by all the genuine intentions and knowledge evidenced here.
Based on advice received from Lloyd and Mike I eventully purchased the Hypergravity and there is not one iota or moment of regret. I had the opportunity recently to try the Powerplate and to paraphrase Philippa “what a joke!”
I most probably agree with Lloyd about the relative positions of Josh’s bum and head but it didn’t stop me from buying what I perceive the more and more I read here and elsewhere and what I have experienced personally in the last 9 months, a well built machine of exceptional quality.
Josy Hayon was a bit short on the info side and failed to answer 2 consecutive e-mails (I later found out he was doing a show at that time)but certainly gave me shipping quotes to SA which I eventually organised from my side because it worked out cheaper.
I was given written guarantees which I thought were eminently fair. I’m going to e-mail Lloyd a record of my correspondence with Josh including the guarantee bit and let him comment on it if he will.
I just don’t want anybody to be precluded from trying a machine just because the maker doesn’t write a good e-mail. Rather chat to Josh in Canada who will gladly it seems provide the info needed.
Please don’t see this as a marketing ad for HG but just the sum of my experience to date. I have not had the opportunity to try the Vibrogym.
Regards from SA
Thanks for the info you sent me.
I will be doing an article soon on warranty periods of different retail machines as it is one area I think comparisions need to be made , to help the consumer understand who really stands behind their products and who doesnt.
Hi Philippa,
you will find the fitvibe will feel similar to the powerplate and the bodyshaker will be comparable to both the vibrogym and the hypergravity, i guess it will come down to the price and the warranty as to which way you go.
- Philippa
June 22nd, 2008I tried the Vibrogym Professional - was very impressed. I notice that the Body shaker has only smaller amplitude (hope I’m using this term correctly) than Hypergravity and VG. The difference in the higher and lower setting on the Vibrogym was marked - so I would therefore assume that the Bodyshaker would not be quite as powerful as the HG and VG? Amplitude did seem to make a big difference but seem to remember reading that Lloyd you did not feel this so much or have I misunderstood? Both Powerplate and Vibrogym teach a kind of sit-up/ crunch type move on the machine - this cetainly didn’t feel good and am thinking it’s not a good idea? I am also having trouble finding an exercise that targets abductors and aductors - is there one or are these areas best targeted by other means?
- Tim
June 22nd, 2008Thanks Keith!
Your experience is further proof that the HG machines are very good. To me, however, that isn´t enough. I´d like to deal with people/companies that are clear and dependable.
- Tim
June 22nd, 2008I am still waiting for Josh in Canada to gladly provide the info…He asked for my questions, but so far hasn´t clarified things. I also came to the conclusion that 4 guys would add up to more than 500 lbs. If they did and there was no difference in amplitude, then what exactly does ““Amplitudes: Low 2-3 mm. High 3-6 mm.” mean?
- Philippa
June 22nd, 2008Are the Fitvibe machines generally considered to be less powerful that Hypergravity, Vibrogym and Bodyshaker? Won’t bother researching and trying them if so. A few companies have offered ex-demos which do make the machines a bit more affordable - is this is good idea do you guys think?
- Erik
June 22nd, 2008About low amplitude devices,
I am not supporting Juvent Medical but i find it quite interesting that standing on an device (Juvent) made of a magnet and voice coil (similar to stereo speaker equipment) which provides a pure acoustic signal with 34 hz and 50 micrometer amplitude can produce almost all therapy effects that is from training on a large high amplitude device (VibroGym, Hypergravity)
If there is no anabolic effect(as Lloyd suggest)in the muscle then why does CT scan shows that treated young woman after 1 year had a 7,2% increase in musclulature of the spine as well as 3,9% increase of cancellous bone of the spine.
DEXA measurement show an increase in whole body bone mineral density as well as hip and spine.
What could be the mechanisms behind building muscle mass if not the involuntary stretch reflex is involved?
I will write an article on that today, as it deserves more than a blog.
The article will just be on bone density.
Your comment on increased muscle mass just around the spine, this would indicate the core was restabilizing constantly while on the plate.
While simply standing on the plate your back muscles are under pressure , as you sway back and forth rebalancing yourself the muscles will relax and tense, this is the stretch reflex + pressure needed to build muscle mass.
But this will only happen to muscle in areas like the core that are not fixed ( the spine is soft and flexable ) which makes you muscle work just to stand up straight , areas like the arms , legs etc. that are stabilized by the solid bone structure will see little or no action.
Thats why “training” angles need to be applied to those areas of a similar effect.
HyperVibe of Australia are still advertising themselves as the researchers ,designers and developers of the machine they simply brought from someone else.
As long as their website does not reflect the basic truth. I will be telling the consumer they cant be trusted.
I just sent this to Murry Seaton…
You have had plenty of time to change your website to reflect the basic truth.
You are not researchers , developers or designers . As long as you continue to claim those things I will be open about my opinion that you cant be trusted , as I think that dishonesty and willingness to claim work that is not yours is a bad sign of things to come.
You will go on the list of companies I regularly warn the consumer about and you will be listed on my new site accordingly.
Tell me if you ever decide to straighten things out.
Regards Lloyd Shaw
My point being this , who claims to be something they are not ? Someone who is not confident at what they do have to offer.
As long as they have no confidence in themselves , I will have no confidence in them.
Philippa
A good example….
A customer of mine tried the fitvibe for 3 sessions at a gym and felt it was a waste of time, only two minutes with me on the vibrogym and she was using language i can’t repeat on here.
I’m not sure on the bodyshaker but the hypergravitys will do 45hz which will be a lot smoother than the vibrogyms 40hz.- Philippa
June 23rd, 2008Thanks Mike - that;s helpful. Tim - just spoken with Josh from Hypergravity who was great and very helpful.. May be worth a call think he is better with conversation than email. Any suggestions on the abductor/ aductor moves anyone or shall I post on different topic?
- Tim
June 23rd, 2008Thanks Philippa! Good point. You might be right. However, I have made my decision. The VG Evolution is being shipped from Holland any day now.
- Wayne Campbell
June 23rd, 2008Lloyd, your question regarding HyperVibe in Australia “who claims to be something they are not?” My answer to that would be dishonest. And one would then have to question if they are dishonest about those claims what else are they being dishonest about. In otherwords they have a credibility problem that needs to be addressed.
He will now have to pray people dont look past his bullshit marketing and come on line and Google HyperVibe .
Because they will find us.
Lloyd’s witch hunt continues…..
Lloyd you have been caught lying again. Where is your evidence?
You claim we are not researchers, developers or designers. Where is your evidence? I have explained we made developments to the home model we are currently selling. I consider myself and others on our team well researched. I am also currently working on our commercial unit, designed, yes thats right, designed absolutely from scratch. It will be out later this year or early in the new year, and you will be forced to admit you were lying.
This is clearly a witch hunt, it has been from the start. If we tow your line, then we should expect no trouble, but don’t tow it, you will go through our website looking for any ridiculous criticism you can find and exploit it.
So you won’t recommend us? fine. But threaten to put us on a list of poor companies because we won’t tow your line? That is just wrong.
So lets look at companies Lloyd does recommend, members of Lloyd’s IVTRB…
One of the ridiculous criticism’s thrown at me on this witch hunt was “10 minutes a day, that is my work and you provide no reference, you claim it as your own work” (I didn’t).
Well, that work came from our physiologist, she has used those protocols for years. Where she got them, I don’t know. I showed that their are numerous sources of that information, and I also gave a good reason why I wouldn’t copy Lloyd’s work. Regardless, it is obvious that hypergravity is Lloyd’s love child here, so when I look at their home page I find a statement regarding just 10 minutes a day, but no reference. In reality, their is not a single site on the internet that adds a reference after such statements, but I am critisized for it?
Funny enough, on the same home page, hypergravity promote the results on HGH from a study on a pivotal platform.Well, if you don’t want my machine ($1395 inclusive) due to Lloyd’s recommendations, you could always buy the same model without the added features and specs of my machine, providing false specifications, from a member of Lloyd’s IVTRB, for a cool $2499.95.
Of the criticism thrown at me, their are some points I think I need to fine tune, for example better explain what exactly we did to our current home model. But no, I haven’t had time, and in the meantime I don’t feel consumers are being horribly misled. I find it extremely arrogant of you to dictate to me that I have have now had “enough time”.
Lloyd please clean up the crap in your own backyard before you come looking for it in mine. You’ve previously asked me to help you do this, but why would I want to do this when you have done nothing but attack me.
Murry , the debate is over…
You clearly say on your site you designed the machine you sell at present in Australia.
This is a bare face lie aimed at getting credit for something you could not do yourself so you just pretend instead. Not a good look and really rubs people up the wrong way who do take the time or appreciate the effort needed to do that job.
Note: If I put a new set of tyres on my car , or add a better stereo, or even change the engine, I still can not claim to be the designer.
You would think me an idiot if I did , and you know it.
As for other companies….
Not many are running to my liking yet , there is alot of sorting out to do on all levels, but they have been making changes which is all I ask.
About price….
We dont just hammer a company for price alone , I know how much you get yours for , and dont mention it. Its when you start looking dodgy in a few areas you get our attention.
Murry …
All I can say is , if you are going to build a machine from scatch , with no shared parts or help from other vibration training companies. Then good on you.
You will then get the respect you seem to want , and understand at the same time why pretenders are not well received.
- Philippa
June 23rd, 2008Sorry to hog the blog a bit here! Having started to look at getting a Vibration Plate for personal use I have got so excited about what they seem able to do that am seriously thinking about starting up a small studio here in the UK. As a teacher (English at that!) I have no experience of this kind of thing but do feel a real passion for it. I would love to talk with someone about the pros/ cons/ pitfalls things to think about etc. Would anyone be able to help and of so how could we go about this? Have decided (I think but would love comment) on maybe 3-4 machines ( Prob 1 Vibrogym (professional) 1 Hypergravity Total Vibe (Excel or normal) and 1 Hypergravity Olympic Pro). Looking forwards to hearing advice - and thanks again for all advice so far.
Thats alot to discuss…
First off you dont need to be a PT to be good at this. You just need to be able to learn new concepts.
If you want to click on my name , go to my site and call me at the head studio in Auckland I will give you all the advice I can.
- Keith
June 23rd, 2008Enjoy your machine Tim I’m sure you have made an excellent choice and great results will be coming your way.
It’s the best thing fitness wise that has happened for both my wife and me. I think every one who finds this blog and through it makes informed buying choices are very fortunate.
I guess you and Josh won’t be exchanging Xmas cards but I know his intentions are honourable, his heart’s in the right place and he builds one helluva machine as I believe do Vibrogym.
Good on you Philippa. Exciting times lie ahead for you. Please keep us updated on progress.The more people are exposed to quality machines the more PP will be exposed for what they are. Good Luck!!
- Philippa
June 24th, 2008Thanks LLoyd, that’s great- have emailed you at Vibra-train.
- Tim
June 24th, 2008Thanks Keith! I wish you all the best!
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June 20th, 2008
Dodgy or not..
They are one of few manufacturers who can back up their claims with scientific evidence. This is directly from “Juvent Signal, by Juvent medical Inc. ” :
•Improved bone density and strength in all age groups
•Restored dynamic action of Type IIA muscle fibres
•Increased muscle strength providing improved balance and postural stability
•Improved blood flow in the circulatory system
This effect is made simply by standing on an device made of a magnet and voice coil (similar to stereo speaker equipment) which provides a pure acoustic signal.
The question is: How can the muscles be affected from this 33 hz vibrating device if there is almost zero (0,2 g) gravity forces involved?