Which Vibration Machine?

Doc asks:

I am in the process of setting up a weight and life style disease management center. I would appreciate if anybody could help me make a choice out of Galileo and Turbosonic. Please explain why the machine you choose is better. This could mean a lot to me because I have never used any WBV machine. I am really counting on your opinion.

610 Comments

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 … 16 »

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 15th, 2006

  If you would like my help you will need to be far more specific surrounding your expectations of the units.

• Doc
  November 16th, 2006

  Thanks Lloyd for the prompt answer. I am a fitness and sports medicine specialist. I am coming up with a concept where we are going to manage weight and life style diseases like diabetes, hytertension etc..

  In the program we are goin to use a combination of diet, psychological counseling, recovery methods and and the exercise part needs to be covered by WBV. As we are planning to set up a 100 centers in the future, it is critical to go for the correct machine.
  We want to help people with weight loss and life style diseases, and we are not going to be into sport specific training. I do not want to injure any of the clients. So this is very critical, as it is the primary ethic for a medical doctor.
  I am still researching and would really appreciate your inputs regarding my concerns.

  Please specify which machine to go for.

  Sonic, vertical or horizontal?

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 16th, 2006

  My advice would be to do it with Vertical(Lineal) vibration pad if you are planning to work with the clinically obese. You need to have a unit designed for that.

  Go to http://www.wavexercise.com

• Doc
  November 16th, 2006

  Thanks Lloyd for suggesting Wave. By the way, to make you understand better, we will have very few clinically obese patients, but more obese and overweight patients.

  I have done some research about turbosonic, and I feel that it suits us well, if you could PLEASE explain it to me why i should use a linear machine instead of a sonic.

  I somehow feel that a sonic machine is more durable, has the minimum side effects and low on maintenance.

  I would really appreciate if you could please explain the difference to me.

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 16th, 2006

  Sonic vibrations should be Lineal , unless the design is somehow flawed. An amplifier-coil/transducer should only give lineal motion.

  The main reason for my distrust of Sonic is the statements they DONT make. Such as not disclosing to the consumer that Sonic/Coil Vibrations have their limits.
  The design of the coil will control those limits.

  The claim that “one machine can do it all ” shows me they actually know little about the different effects the plates should be inducing . And claiming the sonic shocks raise a persons “chi” ?

  As for the lower maintenance , yes they should last you years. My first coil plate was made with an old twin- cone ( over 30 years old and still working ).

  As for Wave..

  I have spoken to Wavexercise personally and they are constantly researching better options for their customers. I have never heard then say ” they have done it “.

  Arrogance is not the side you will ever see me on. Not when it comes to peoples health.

• Doc
  November 16th, 2006

  Thanks Lloyd again for the expaination.I really appreciate the inputs you are giving.

  Could you please explain further “what are these statements they don’t make”?
  What are the limits of these machines as compared to linear?
  What are the differences in the results of these two types of machines?
  Will the sonic machine assist in Weight loss combined with correct nutrition and motivation?
  If yes then some approximate figures please?

  It has been so kind of you to have shared your knowledge with the people on this forum, keep up the great work, and I am sure a lot of people reading this will find this information interesting.

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 17th, 2006

  I have done my best to pinpoint my concerns about machines that claim to “do it all”.

  All units will give weight loss , but how long for is the real question. Your training must be evolutionary. In all directions , not just Time / Hz / Ampl etc..

  I have 5 models for a reason. Why would I bother if one could do everything ?

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 17th, 2006

  And Doc..
  BMI ( weight loss ) is no longer a recognised medical term.

  Body-Composition ( body-fat% / muscle mass etc..) is more appropriate when dealing with any type of training.

• Doc
  November 17th, 2006

  Dear Lloyd,
  Thank you for reminding me about Body Fat %, I did study anthropometry and If you want I can organise underwater weighing for you. Please understand that I am an absolute professional in the fitness industry( certified fitness trainer and gym owner) besides being a post graduate medical doctor in the field of Sports Medicine.
  I very well understand that what is the difference between therapy and training.
  My question to you was that, what are the limits of sonic machines?
  If you do not explain to me then how will I understand.
  Is it the adaptation that sets in?
  Is it that the results are much weaker than the linear machines?
  or is there something else I don’t understand?

  As you had suggested wave, but they also claim that all the things can be done by the same machine.

  As you said, that you understand the sonic technology well, then you should be able to explain WHY, linear is superior to the sonic technology?

  If anybody agrees to me on my question on this forum, please join and ask this question to Lloyd.

  And as I have followed his comments over the web, he has been really kind in sharing his knowledge. I am sure this time also he won’t disappoint us.

  Regards,

  Doc

• Nadine
  November 17th, 2006

  Lloyd,

  You obviously have a great deal of knowledge and expertise on this area. I claim total ignorance except for my own experience with my TurboSonic. A couple friends who’ve compared a few machines have said the others they tried were more abrasive and the vibrations more jagged than the TurboSonic.

  With regard to the TurboSonic in particular, I’m curious if you own one, or if not, how many times have you used one? What has been your personal experience using it, and how does your experience contradict the claim that it provides both therapy and training?

  What exactly are the potential limits of a Sonic/Coil Vibration? As I have developed a relationship with the master distributor and am now in the position to be able to sell these machines, I can inquire specifically about the design of the coil and consequent limits, if I know more to what you are referring.

  >The claim that “one machine can do it all ” shows me >they actually know little about the different effects >the plates should be inducing.

  When you say “should” be inducing, to what standard are you referring? Could you please list the different effects so that I can inquire with the company about these?

  I personally wasn’t interested in finding a machine that could physically train me. I just wanted one that was reliable, gentle, health-inducing, could clear my lymph and improve my circulation. The celulite loss and muscle gain were unexpected pluses, especially the added arm strength, when I’ve done nothing but “let ‘em hang”.

  I find that the range of frequencies that cycle on the Sonic’s “auto” setting are deliciously stimulating. Do all the machines have auto programs that alternate the frequencies? I also find that the lower frequencies (6-15, especially 6-8) are especially energizing. I wonder how many of the other machines have such low frequencies? I know of a cancer doctor who is having success treating his patients with the TurboSonic, focusing mostly on those lower Sonic frequencies.

  Sonic Health Systems is doing continuous research and is in the process of developing written materials documenting the effects. They rushed to market it before they had time to complete these things. If I’m correct, the claims are based on a combo of their research as well as the research and testimonials from doctors, coaches, professors, etc. across Korea.

  I could not say whether they’re exaggerated or not, but I hear your argument on the basis of logistics when it comes to physical training. Personally, it doesn’t affect me. I’m more interested in what they’re finding therapeutically. For example, the autistic child who’s been sitting on it daily in their home office, and becoming more alert and focused. It’s a new frontier for exploration.

  >And claiming the sonic shocks raise a persons “chi” ?

  Apparently you’re not of the Asian persuasion. Keep in mind that this machine was developed in Korea and its effects have been evaluated by their paradigm in addition to the western one. Whether this is unique to TurboSonic I wouldn’t know, but based on personal experience, it definitely raises my energy and mood, and does so for everyone else I know who has used it.

  Thanks for your involvement with this list and for informing people as you do.

  Nadine

• Kris
  November 18th, 2006

  Wow, is TurboSonic expensive - $13,000 and $16,000! And nowhere could I find the materials used in the product - steel, plastic?? There just weren’t very many details or warnings. Anyone with experience with it beyond therapy vibes?

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 18th, 2006

  Nadine…
  I have not used a Turbo-Sonic. But will when i get a chance. I fully understand transducer/coil tech. And have designed and used it before.
  It is very good for Therapy.
  I have designed a unit for training purposes , and will no doubt release it at some stage.

  The relation of Physics/Bio-machanics/Myotatic/Involuntary relexes etc.. and resonance Fqs , to the machine you are designing is very relevant.

  If you are close to the designer of the Sonic , you should be directing those questions to that person. If they cant explain the limitations of their machine. Then something is wrong, as ALL units have limits.

  Yes some systems are very “Violent” A design fault you can “feel”. Others are not so obvious.

  I would be very cautious using lower settings ( under 38Hz ) on a regular basis . You are matching res-fq of different organs/lumbar etc… over a wide range from 5hz - 35hz. Not recommended for long tem exposure.

  Meaning…You could be building something up , while breaking something else down.

  My “chi” comment was to point out ambigious statements loved by marketers. Asian or not.

• Nadine
  November 19th, 2006

  Kris, the TurboSonic weighs nearly 400 lbs. Still wondering what it’s made of?

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 20th, 2006

  Lineal movement covers these designs.

  (1) Off-set paired counter weight motors.
  (2) Coil transducer ( sonic )
  (3) Opposing magnet systems ( 4 per plate )

  So your question of Sonic or Lineal makes little sense to me . im sorry. They are the same.

  All these designs have their limits. But in different areas. The response you want has to be precisely known “before” the model is written in its first form. That is where coil units have limits. Certain functions cannot be manipulated past its construction.
  One of those is set by the speed of an electrical current.

  As for the Wave….A lot of units claim to do both Therapy and Training which is possable , but only to a certain degree.

• Doc
  November 20th, 2006

  As I can understand that as Lloyd hasn’t used the tubosonic machine, so he can’t explain the difference clearly. His answers sound very vague and I am unable to understand, what he is trying to say!!!!

  I request, is any person on this forum could share some of their experiences with the turbosonic.

• Kris
  November 20th, 2006

  “Kris, the TurboSonic weighs nearly 400 lbs. Still wondering what it’s made of?”

  Actually, Nadine, I would like more specifics … especially at those prices!! Weight doesn’t prove what the machine can do nor how “flexible” the design is. On some of the sites for TurboSonic they stick strictly to the “therapy” description for its design. Others seem to emphasize “therapy” but also throw in “training”. If they cannot explain in greater detail as reps from the Wave or Hypergravity do, then any beginner or novice shouldn’t take the chance or risk that much money. I too was amazed at the touting of the low frequencies as being good in general since I’ve learned from others that such low frequencies are dangerous and can do damage. Now then, who’s right?

  Also, the Wave is coming out with a larger (than most) personal model - shooting for January. Its design is to prevent “walking” and it should have several more innovative features. More expensive than Hypergravity personal but larger … and a lot less than TurboSonic. And the reps will answer all questions with good detail.

  My question, at these prices, is just how one gets serviced in an area where this technology has not taken root as yet - esp. for the home models.

  I would like to bug Lloyd again! Sorry, Lloyd! But where should an out of shape beginner start with, say, a Hypergravity or Wave - in frequency? I would assume one stays in the “therapy” region of frequencies for a period of time. Then, how does one begin the “training” and at what frequency for how long? Hopefully there are DVDs that come with machines for guidance - esp. when there are no training facilities in the area that use WBVs for reference. I know the new Waves will have one.

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 21st, 2006

  Doc…
  if you dont have the knowledge or background in transducers and their limitations , in Physics terms, or the 9 factors/responses needed to cause true Vibration Training. I am sorry but its to much for me to teach you. Sorry.
  I hope you can find someone who can.

  The Hypergravity for a starter unit. And wait to see how Wave gets on.
  Start on 45hz and lower it to 40hz as you gain strenght and your poses get stricter.

• Doc
  November 21st, 2006

  Yes Lloyd I do have weak knowledge about machines as I am good with humans. You don’t have to feel offended by my comments, as my only intention is about understanding WBV and in my continous effort I will eventually learn.

  What my concern is that you have not answered my question regarding the limitations of the the sonic machines.
  As a teacher you should be more patient and try to explain in a different way, as most of the people don’t understand this technology.

  I am sure you will come out with a new way to explian my question.

  Thanks,
  Doc

• KG
  November 21st, 2006

  Doc,
  This is standard practice with Lloyd.
  You being a clinical sort seek to pierce through the vagueness and get down to exact technical specifics in accordance to your training and then you can rely on your taining to make the call.
  That’s not Lloyd’s game. He’ll throw out big tecno-buzz-terms(and even they can bring multiple meanings depending on context) and hope the untrained will just blissfully skip off with their ignorance. Your training has always asked you for more information to complete the equations you need answered…so with Lloyd you’ll go wanting. After all, he is no doctor. He is, as he has said a mortician by trade(that’s right folks…a mortician that sells a wellness product-the irony). If you look at his website you’ll see it is locked for comment. i can only assume enquiring minds….enquired a bit much for Lloyd…If I were you I’d look for other sources…such as the 800lb. gorilla of the industry…PowerPlate. But definitely seek others as well. This is a complicated field and glibness just isn’t enough for some.
  Best to you…

• KG
  November 21st, 2006

  Doc…
  You know what? I just checked out the Turbosonic website. I must say, from the marketing alone “Latte or Turbo Break”???? Shame on you for considering such a thing. What is with the Chakra colors as well on there??? Yikes. It just does’nt come off as serious… at least for folks that don’t live in a commune.

• Doc
  November 22nd, 2006

  Dear KG,

  Considering something doesn’t mean that the person should be ashamed for that. It is through consideration, you get to the right product.

  If you are writing like this, it shows that you are an arrogant person, who really needs to work on his emotional intelligence.

  Don’t take me wrong but you do sound like that. If you want to say something bad about the sonic technology then you should come out with facts. Blatantly condemning things is not the right way to do, you should attach it with facts.

  I would consider all other machines but not powerplate, that is for sure.

  If you have some explaination to support your comments then please share them with all of us on this forum.

  And please don’t take me in the wrong sense. I’d appreciate it.

  Thanks and regards,
  Doc

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 22nd, 2006

  I suspect KG is a person who works for Power-Plate ( or did until last week ) and has consistantly put me down for my choosen proffesion in public since 2004 .

  Doc…..
  I hope this explains “one” major drawback of tranducer coils for the construction of a vibration pad.
  The acceleration of the plate would be set at the same speed , depending on its windings. Because electricity travels at the same speed.
  If this was to be controlled ( which you need to adapt syn-wave timing in the muscles )
  A resistance coil would have to be used , the heat generated would be of a major concern.

  So you have a set g-force or overheating.
  Not good either way.

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 22nd, 2006

  KG…
  you have still not even attempted to answer the questions surrounding Power-Plates machines.

  I understand it must be very hard to justify lying to so many people for so long. But give it a go anyway.

  It might take some weight off.

• Doc
  November 22nd, 2006

  Dear Lloyd,

  Thanks for al last giving me a reason for not considering a sonic machine.
  I will work on it and try to understand it better then will get back to you.

  Regards,
  Doc

• Dr Z
  November 25th, 2006

  I have been using the Turbosonic in my clinic since March. I have treated children through 86 year old Parkinson’s patients. It is well tolerated and consistantly I recieve reports of greater vitality, sense of well being, more energy, sleeping better plus reduction of pain. I see many patients per day of various heights and weights and have never exerienced a heat problem”!
  Please clarify the comment “A resistance coil would have to be used , the heat generated would be of a major concern”?

  The beauty of the Turbosonic is that you can manually control the frequency and intensity to suit your particular goal.This makes the device very safe for all types of people. I was on the Powerplate and advised to be in a ski type of stance. When I began to stand upright the operator turned off the machine. You have to be much more diligent on the time on the device because you could easily overtax you musculoskeltal system.

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 25th, 2006

  Dr Z…..
  It is great to hear that your patients are gaining benifit from Vibration Therapy. Your forward thinking will help alot of people.

  Now to your blog…
  All units have different intensities. And can be changed manually. So I do not understand the point of this statement. Even the cheapest units can do this ?
  The stimulating properties you mention will also be gained from most models .

  This is usually done by altering the Fq ( speed ). Which in turn changes the responses within the muscle groups ( useing natural reflex timing )
  And G-Force ( acc/mass)
  Combined with amplitude.

  But this is only 3 of the 9 ways of varying the intensity.

  I did not say that a coil system wasnt any good. It just isnt the best way to allow for ALL variances in the 9 part equation to be used.
  A differently built resistance coil would allow for more play in the figures. But a by product of this would be heat.

  The Turbo-Sonic would not create heat as it has a set coil system.

  I just dont respect companies that say their machine ” does it all ” when they clearly dont even understand what ” it all ” even is.

• Dr Z
  November 26th, 2006

  I just joined the blog and am not familiar with the 9 part equation. May I trouble you to repost it. Also could you refer me to the blog that states “machine ” does it all ” .
  When It comes to intensity it has been my experience that other machines have either a high or low setting. The Turbosonic has the ability to attenuate the intensity from almost no movement to full intensity.It is like turning up the volume on a speaker.
  Whole body vibration machines powered by rotary motor cause direct vibrations,
  Indirect vibrations are caused by rotary motors with an eccentric bob.

  To my understanding Rotary motors are limited, they can’t match vibration strength and frequency with power, strength. Power control is only possible by adjusting the frequency settings, (High power, with high frequency and low strength with low frequency).TurboSonic Trainer’s control adjustments, sync the vibration, amplitude and frequency to match its power strength

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 26th, 2006

  A caution to the public. A certain Vibration Therapy company is getting its marketers to post blogs under the guise of being satisfied “Doctors” who purchased a certain product. On different forums.

  I believe this is highly unethical so I will be treating all likewise posts with suspicion untill they confirm their identities and place of practice.

  Endorsements under pseudonyms should never be taken seriously.

• KG
  November 26th, 2006

  Important note…
  Dr. Zilahy is a chiropractor NOT a MD or Medical Doctor.
  I believe an appropriate analogy for this is a Chiiropractic practitioner can and will call themselves a doctor….just as a Scientologist…says they’re a member of a “religion”.
  CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!!

• Dr Z
  November 26th, 2006

  Dear Lloyd,
  Your credibility has just been seriously questioned by your comments using an analogy of Chiropractic and Scientology. Indeed CAVEAT EMPTOR to your advice!!!
  I would like to know what makes an MD more qualified to comment on whole body vibration?
  Personally, I have a mechanical engineering background, I am qualified to testify in the Connecticut judicial system as an expert in biomechanics and have privileges at St. Mary’s Hospital which is affiliated with Yale.
  I think readers should know Chiropractic is the largest, most regulated, and best recognized of the complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) professions. (Meeker, Haldeman; 2002; Annals of Internal Medicine)

  There are more than 60,000 active chiropractic licenses in the United States. All 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands officially recognize chiropractic as a health care profession.
  In 2002, approximately 7.4 percent of the population used chiropractic care – a higher percentage than yoga, massage, acupuncture or other diet-based therapies. (Tindle HA, Davis RB, Phillips RS, Eisenberg DM. Trends in use of complementary and alternative medicine by US adults: 1997-2002. Altern Ther Health Med. 2005 Jan-Feb;11(1):42-9.)
  Doctors of Chiropractic undergo at least four years of professional study at one of 16 chiropractic colleges accredited by the Council on Chiropractic Education (CCE), an agency recognized by the U.S. Secretary of Education. In addition, Doctors of Chiropractic must pass national board examinations and become state-licensed prior to practicing.
  In national surveys, patients patients routinely rate Doctors of Chiropractic highly in skill, manner, and explanation of treatment.
  Doctors of Chiropractic provide care in hospitals and other multidisciplinary health care facilities.
  Chiropractic is the third largest doctoral-level health care profession after medicine and dentistry.
  Chiropractic is a branch of the healing arts which is concerned with human health and disease processes. Doctors of Chiropractic are physicians who consider man as an integrated being and give special attention to the physiological and biochemical aspects including structural, spinal, musculoskeletal, neurological, vascular, psychological, nutritional, visceral, emotional and environmental relationships and are trained in diagnosis so they may treat patients effectively and make timely referral to appropriate health care providers.

  Having said that, you still haven’t answered my questions of the previous blog.

• Kathy
  November 26th, 2006

  Here’s support for the chiropractor! Mine has helped me more than my MD!

• Philip
  November 26th, 2006

  Dr ?? Z it wasn’t Lloyd Shaw who made those comments.

• Dr Z
  November 26th, 2006

  I apologize. This is the first time I ever used a blog. I am so sorry! I now know how to reference.

• Kat
  November 26th, 2006

  What exactly Dr. Z has’nt Lloyd responded to regarding your previous post?
  I’ve been skeptical of this whole WBV thing and Lloyd has given me and other board users some very practical hands-on advice. Surely he isn’t responsible for you to make sure your turbo thing works, or how to build it. Geeze.
  While KG can be a blowhard…
  I think he brought up some points to consider. Chiropractic is alternative medicine…my hunch is alternative to real medicine. I’m sure it works in many cases, just like traditional shamanic rituals will also work on occasion.
  And shame on you KG for linking Chiropactic with Scientology. I LOVE Tom Cruise(:

• Lloyd Shaw
  November 27th, 2006

  Dr.Z….
  No problem. I understand a mistake like that can be made easily on a Furum. I can assure you i will NEVER use a seudonym.
  I will also never put down a medical proffesional. After all I am a Mortician. Who am I to speak ?

  KG’s presence on this blog is a mystery. He has never offered any answers or real questions.

  My comment was not just directed to this blog. And was to stop such behaviour getting out of hand. Alot of people are using this blog as a reference fot WBV, so we should take that on board and act accordingly.

  To explain the full 9 parts I would need to write a book. This is not the place.
  I have also given away knowledge in the past, with it being used incorrectly , to quickly , all in the name of the marketing dollar.
  One particular individual stole a partial plan and proceeded to manufacture it. Of coarse it didnt work very well , but more importantly his lack of knowledge was just plain dangerous.

  I will not repeat that mistake. The knowledge I choose to part with can only be grasped by those who are already have sufficnt knowledge.

  Your credentials are impessive and you have a better background to be involved in this process ( developing safe WBV protocols ) we have all started.

• Dr Z
  November 27th, 2006

  Thank you Lloyd for your comments. When I became involved with WBV I went to Univ. of Connecticut’s Medical Library and downloaded the worlds peered reviewed liturature. After exhaustive research I found that the Turbosonic was the only device that delivered frequencies that could be controlled in the 8- 11 Hertz range. By EMG studies those frequencies stimulate the majority of the trunk and leg muscles.
  By training one osteoporotic individual for 6 months, using low frequencies I have scientifically demonstrated a 12 % improvement in bone density. According to the head of OB/GYN at St. Mary’s Hospital “that is off the Richter scale” We are now in the process of doing a formal study.

  You can read more at http://www.healthyvibration.com/WBV%20web/osteoporosis.htm. As compared to taking medications, the side effect of low frequency training resulted in stronger legs, improved balance and an increase of wellbeing!

• SK
  December 7th, 2006

  Hi Lloyd,

  Thank you for your response for my earlier question between the Proellixe and the Wave.
  I have now been researching the Fitvibe and wondered your opinion on that one.
  Again, I am opening a vibration studio that is going to concentrate on fitness and weight loss.

  The wave or Fitvibe and why?

  Thanks!

• Lloyd Shaw
  December 7th, 2006

  A combination of both would be best. Remember these units are all designed by different companies , so will give varying responses.
  That is why our company has 5 models .

  Choice is always a good thing.

• elle
  December 16th, 2006

  Lloyd,

  I have seen your comments on many sites and have two questions I would like to ask. One, for personal use, which machine is the best? Two, since it is not easy to spend $4,000 in one shot, do you know if any of the companies that you would recommend would finance their machine?

  Thanks for your guidance.

  Feedback from anyone would be much appreciated. I can be emailed at diogenes04@hotmail.com

• Lloyd Shaw
  December 17th, 2006

  What country are you in ? That makes a difference in the available units.

  And yes $4000 is alot of money. Thats 266 sessions ( $15 ) in a supervised studio , on a commercial machine.

  130 sessions a year on a quality unit is all most people need to get good results.

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 … 16 »

Add Comment

RSS Feed Comments Feed | All content copyright © 2007-2008 VibrationTraining.net

Privacy Policy | Contact Us